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#1
Old 12-18-2012, 08:24 PM
RapidFire26
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Default Ward-Martinez is Not The Same As Martinez-Mayweather

Floyd is a beltholder at 154 (which is the highest weight a Martinez-Floyd fight would take place at), while Martinez is not one at 168. Martinez has offered Floyd a lower catch weight, while Ward has not done the same for Martinez from what I have seen. Martinez would likely accept restrictions on his fight night weight or he has at least said he would try to lose the weight necessary to make a catchweight of 152 or 150 in as healthy manner as possible (suggests he would decrease the weight he walks around at). Again, Ward has not offered this. Ward is like 8 years younger than Martinez, while Floyd is two years younger.

Thus Floyd would be fighting a bigger, but older man who would probably be weight-drained in some way, while Sergio would be fighting a fighter that is both bigger and younger. Not to mention that Ward wouldn't be weight-drained at all if they fought at 168. I also think Ward would make better use of his size advantage than Martinez would against Floyd given their respective styles. Size would likely only make a difference for Sergio in regards to power then, but even this may be tempered by draining.

Martinez (at least his team does) admits he would lose to Ward partially due to his size, while Floyd's team including his uncles have said he would beat Martinez. If they believe he would still win then what is the problem?

If Floyd is willing to fight Canelo then his reasoning for not fighting Martinez is not purely based on size. Canelo comes into his fights at pretty much the same weight Martinez does and Floyd already fought Victor Ortiz who came into their fight at 164 lbs.

I guess the argument can be turned around on Martinez given that he fought the much bigger Chavez Jr., but I think Martinez' team would admit he is far less skilled than Ward (they must believe that given their reluctance to put him in there with Ward) and that the weight draining probably hurts his stamina a bit. Kelly Pavlik also significantly outweighed Martinez when they fought, so it isn't as if Martinez is completely afraid to fight bigger fighters.

Thus if he does end up fighting Canelo then he is probably not fighting Martinez for a combination of reasons. Size may very well play a role, but skill and less drawing power would likely be more important.

Essentially Floyd and his team should put up or shut up when they say he can beat Martinez.

Last edited by RapidFire26; 12-18-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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#2
Old 12-18-2012, 08:25 PM
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I agree Floyd has been ducking a 160 martinez.
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#3
Old 12-18-2012, 08:27 PM
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Forget Ward, Martineza wouldnt even face Carl Froch who is around the same age.

Martinez hasnt fought at 154 in 4 years so the point is moot.
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#4
Old 12-18-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapidFire26 View Post
Floyd is a beltholder at 154 (which is the highest weight a Martinez-Floyd fight would take place at), while Martinez is not one at 168. Martinez has offered Floyd a lower catch weight, while Ward has not done the same for Martinez from what I have seen. Martinez would likely accept restrictions on his fight night weight or he has at least said he would try to lose the weight necessary to make a catchweight of 152 or 150 in as healthy manner as possible (suggests he would decrease the weight he walks around at). Again, Ward has not offered this. Ward is like 8 years younger than Martinez, while Floyd is two years younger.

Thus Floyd would be fighting a bigger, but older man who would probably be weight-drained in some way, while Sergio would be fighting a fighter that is both bigger and younger. Not to mention that Ward wouldn't be weight-drained at all if they fought at 168. I also think Ward would make better use of his size advantage than Martinez would against Floyd given their respective styles. Size would likely only make a difference for Sergio in regards to power then, but even this may be tempered by draining.

Martinez (at least his team does) admits he would lose to Ward partially due to his size, while Floyd's team including his uncles have said he would beat Martinez. If they believe he would still win then what is the problem?

If Floyd is willing to fight Canelo then his reasoning for not fighting Martinez is not purely based on size. Canelo comes into his fights at pretty much the same weight Martinez does and Floyd already fought Victor Ortiz who came into their fight at 164 lbs.

I guess the argument can be turned around on Martinez given he fought the much bigger Chavez Jr., but I think Martinez' team would admit he is far less skilled than Ward (they must believe that given their reluctance to put him in there with Ward) and that the weight draining probably hurts his stamina a bit. Kelly Pavlik also significantly outweighed Martinez when they fought, so it isn't as if Martinez is completely afraid to fight bigger fighters.

Thus if he does end up fighting Canelo then he is probably not fighting Martinez for a combination of reasons. Size may very well play a role, but skill and less drawing power would likely be more important.

Essentially Floyd and his team should put up or shut up when they say he can beat Martinez.
One big fact that your leaving out is that Mayweather at 154 is in his fifth division. It seems people keep moving the goal post for him. He started at 130, not 147. Martinez started at 147 and has spent most of his career at 154 and now 160. If you are going to compare them, Martinez should not get a catch weight at 168 which would be his fourth division. Mayweather has never fought a championship fight at a catch weight. With that, Martinez shouldn't expect one against Ward.
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#5
Old 12-18-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeyzagz View Post
Forget Ward, Martineza wouldnt even face Carl Froch who is around the same age.

Martinez hasnt fought at 154 in 4 years so the point is moot.
http://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/104489.html

From this article it looks like Dibella has entertained the idea, although he could have been BSing. Has Froch been clamoring for this fight? His focus has always seemed to be almost entirely on the SMW. Sure I've seen him mention it at least once (he offered to drop down even I believe), but he seems to want to fight Ward and Kessler much more than he does Sergio. Sergio, on the other hand, would jump at the chance to fight Floyd.

Froch is still bigger than Sergio obviously and comes into his fights around 174 I believe, but at least he says he would move down.

I think Martinez' position is that he will move down for the big names like Floyd, Cotto, and Alvarez, but for nothing else. Makes sense given his age and the time needed to make a catchweight of 152 in a semi-healthy manner.
Why put yourself through that when you are already successful at 160 unless a lot of money or your legacy is involved.
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#6
Old 12-18-2012, 08:50 PM
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Your leaving one thing out......

154 is Floyd's 5th weight class, 24 lbs above where he started. Floyd can't even make 154 and is like 147-150 on his fight nights. Sergio is on his 3rd weight class at 160, and weighs close to 170 lbs on fight night.

In terms of actual size....Sergio is closer to Ward than to Floyd, that's a fact. Sergio is like 20 lbs bigger than Floyd in size. Ward is about 10 lbs bigger than Martinez.
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#7
Old 12-18-2012, 08:51 PM
RapidFire26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
One big fact that your leaving out is that Mayweather at 154 is in his fifth division. It seems people keep moving the goal post for him. He started at 130, not 147. Martinez started at 147 and has spent most of his career at 154 and now 160. If you are going to compare them, Martinez should not get a catch weight at 168 which would be his fourth division. Mayweather has never fought a championship fight at a catch weight. With that, Martinez shouldn't expect one against Ward.
From what I have seen it is much more difficult to move up the higher weight divisions than it is the lower ones. It is done more often at least in this current era of boxing. Also, Martinez would have to go up to 175 in order to reach his fifth division, which would actually be a larger jump than Floyd's in terms of weight. Floyd also hasn't fought the biggest 154 lbers in Cotto and De La Hoya, but if he fought Alvarez then that would show his openness.

Again, Floyd and his team say they can beat Martinez, while Martinez's team says he could not beat Ward. Why not prove it then?

They're both considered two P4P greats, so it may not be as lucrative as Alvarez it is still a draw and is a potential legacy builder. If you think you can win then why not?
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#8
Old 12-18-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Corners View Post
Your leaving one thing out......

154 is Floyd's 5th weight class, 24 lbs above where he started. Floyd can't even make 154 and is like 147-150 on his fight nights. Sergio is on his 3rd weight class at 160, and weighs close to 170 lbs on fight night.

In terms of actual size....Sergio is closer to Ward than to Floyd, that's a fact. Sergio is like 20 lbs bigger than Floyd in size. Ward is about 10 lbs bigger than Martinez.
Depends on the night. Sergio typically weighs 165-167 on fight night, while Floyd fights at 147-151. Basically a 15-20 pound difference. However, as I said Sergio has seemed open to weight restrictions and would give himself 6 months to lose weight in a relatively healthy manner to prepare. As I mentioned Ward would likely make more effective use of a size advantage given his style.

However, if Floyd fights Alavarez who is not just the same size as Martinez, but also much younger then I don't see how this argument on its own is still valid.

Again, Martinez' team says he would lose. Floyd and his team maintain he would win. That's a big difference right there.
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#9
Old 12-18-2012, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
One big fact that your leaving out is that Mayweather at 154 is in his fifth division. It seems people keep moving the goal post for him. He started at 130, not 147. Martinez started at 147 and has spent most of his career at 154 and now 160. If you are going to compare them, Martinez should not get a catch weight at 168 which would be his fourth division. Mayweather has never fought a championship fight at a catch weight. With that, Martinez shouldn't expect one against Ward.
Martinez will be 38 next year. You really expect him to move up to a fourth weight class and fight Andre Ward at the full 168? Andre Ward has already said he can't possibly shed another pound and is more likely to move up to 175 if anything. I think people are only bringing Andre Ward up as an excuse for Floyd. Personally, I don't blame Floyd, if I were him I'd avoid Martinez and Trout at all costs.
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#10
Old 12-18-2012, 09:44 PM
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The thing is Martinez isn't as skilled P4P as Mayweather. Give him Floyd's skills, combined with his size and he could fight and beat Ward, Froch, etc.

Unfortunately he started late and is far more on the fly type of style that lacks a certain polish. A great champion nonetheless but just not quite there
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