Comments Thread For: Juan Manuel Marquez Says Retirement is Tempting

[streetwaves]

A fight unfolds, it ebbs and flows, it is all about momentum and creating opportunities. If you think it is even slightly relevant that Pacquiao was 1 point up on the cards in a fight that had not even reached the half-way point when he got KTFO, then I question your boxing knowledge and understanding of the game.

" seemed to be taking over " ?

Get real, what the fuk would you call round 1 of the first fight ?

Did Pac " seem to be taking over " ?

He didn't win that fight either btw.

Round 1 of the first fight is 1 round of the first fight. This was an entire half of a fight, mostly dominated by Pacquiao's movement, feints, and aggression. For once, I felt he was clearly the sharper of the two, even after the first KD.

Originally Posted by stretchedout

OK, I pretty much agree with most of what you said there, not everything, but there is nothing that I disagree with badly enough to want to discuss right now.

BTW, it is refreshing to see that you are capable of debate without attempting to talk down to me or insinuate that I am somehow not on your level..... it is no coincidence that you will now receive the same courtesy from me, and we will get along much better

For the record, I usually do not do that unprompted. I must have started that in response to something I thought you said, but we're having an actual conversation now so there's no need to get back into that.

Also, I tried to clean you up after reading this comment.....
" I'd agree that he doesn't have the technical skill, and he was out boxed in the first three fights"

I was absolutely positive that you stated earlier that you thought Pacquiao won the third fight, which is actually the main reason why I decided to start on you. When I read the comment above it appeared that you had just committed flip-flop hare-kari. I searched your post history in this thread and it appears that I misread post# 134.

At one point you quoted me saying "I felt Marquez won the third fight", and responded as if I had said the complete opposite. I didn't know what the **** I said wrong.

OK, so I apologise for that. When it appeared to me that you were attempting to insinuate that was a lucky punch, after thinking that you tried to award the third fight to Pacquiao..... I assumed that you were a member of a particular fanbase that I have an intense dislike for.

I can't possibly watch the third fight and convince myself Pacquiao won. I've heard he outlanded Marquez, he was busier, Marquez should have brought it to him more, etc. Doesn't matter to me. I score fights based on what I see, and Marquez looked better and that's that. Cleaner work, and he made Pacquiao look quite reckless and desperate for most of the fight.

Look, just prior to that KO the momentum was with Pac for approximately 1.5 rounds..... well, add up how many times that has happened during the series so far, and then you will understand why I disagree that Pac was about to get this miraculous knockout.

I'm not necessarily saying Pacquiao would have gotten the KO, though he was looking quite dominant after the 5th round. However, I had him winning I think every round except for 3 because of the knockdown (I'd have to re-watch to be sure). That's not something we've seen in any of the previous fights. We haven't seen Marquez, who by now knows Manny like the back of his hand, take as many of the sorts of shots he was taking. He was having problems with Manny that night. The counter-argument of course is that the cost for Manny to look that good was eventually getting KO'd. Of course that's possible.

Anything could have happened, Diaz was way up on the cards until Marquez started to change the momentum. What about the energy that Pac was expending, what about the investment downstairs that Marquez had made, what about his legendary recuperation and endurance, who gets their second wind first.

Exactly, but this is sort of my point. These guys are damned close; not in every individual category, but when everything is added up, they both give each other headaches. Believe me, even though Marquez's counter-punching is effective against Pacquiao, he's had easier opponents to deal with.

Based on the fact that Marquez had never even knocked Manny down, and Manny had knocked Marquez down 4 times, you'd have to admit that Pacquiao's odds of KOing Marquez were higher. I never, ever thought I'd see what happened happen. I think it's reasonable to say that after round 5, the odds of Manny stopping Marquez were much higher than what Marquez accomplished. Still, he did it, and that's my point. The fact that Marquez is who he is - an incredibly skilled, tough, and intelligent fighter - helped to make that outcome possible, despite being improbable.

What Marquez does, is he adjusts to your style, knowing him the way I do, it is insane for anyone to assume that he would not be able to adjust or adapt to Pacquiao had the fight not ended abruptly.

Of course. I'm just saying Pacquiao was dishing out more punishment than in the past, and so it very easily could have gone the other way. I don't call knockout punches "lucky". At the very most I call them "fortunate", which I don't think is something that can truly be argued with. Marquez gambled that his plan to KO Pacquiao would work, and all plans are gambles. He could have come up short. It's part of the game. Manny gambled on his strategy, and it was working until Marquez smacked him with that vicious, perfectly placed sh1t.

It actually think it would have been great to see how that fight unfolded had it gone to the later rounds. It could have gone down as one of the best ever.

Listen, I gotta go, it appears I misread your earlier post and overreacted, and I only slightly disagree with a couple of points in the last half of your post..... mainly a perspective issue I suspect.

No hard feelings.

Yeah, while it lasted, that fight was awesome. It was vintage sh1t, Manny getting knocked down was crazy enough and then he returned the favor. What unfolded was amazing in itself although it did leave me wanting more.

So conclusion: in my book, as long as one doesn't grow old overnight, they're going to have great, competitive fights every time. If they both show up literally trying to tear each other apart, you might get the sort of outcome we got on Saturday. I just think it's disrespectful to two great fighters to say Manny got KO'd because he's garbage / Marquez KO'd Manny because Manny is garbage. **** happens in boxing as it does everywhere else. I believe in appreciating the two great fighters.

[streetwaves]

Originally Posted by stretchedout

What, so you think that Pacquiao - after failing 4 times, and suffering a horrific knockout - will somehow win the 5th encounter, even though it is plainly obvious that Marquez has his number?

Well, Pacquiao desperately needs a long break and a comeback fight, at least. Maybe even a couple of comeback fights.

How old will Marquez be then ?

41 - 42 ?

You could be right. That is why I could not answer street's 100 question.

The situation will continually change, and there are many variables.

But yes, I will likely be betting on Marquez

BTW, this is not an alt account. I cannot understand the need for one. I have returned after a small absence, that is all.

When I asked the 100 question, I meant it like they're fighting 100 times in separate dimensions. Think of it like if you had a boxing video game and matched up Pacquiao with Marquez, computer simulated, 100 times. Marquez ain't gonna win all 100 times on the video game, or in real life.

As long as Manny doesn't take the KO bad mentally, he can come back. Despite agreeing that Marquez has Manny's number, and despite picking him beforehand to win the 4th fight, based on what I saw I think Pacquiao is the fresher of the two. I'd pick him to win the 5th encounter, if they show up in reasonably similar condition to the 4th.

[stretchedout]

Originally Posted by streetwaves

Round 1 of the first fight is 1 round of the first fight. This was an entire half of a fight, mostly dominated by Pacquiao's movement, feints, and aggression. For once, I felt he was clearly the sharper of the two, even after the first KD.

I think that you are understating the first fight, and overstating the fourth, and I think you missed my point about the first fight.

The fourth fight was not "mostly dominated by Pacquiao's movement, feints, and aggression"..... 1.5 rounds were.

The point I was trying to make is..... you saying that the momentum was with Pac, so therefore [scenario] would have definitely happened, is totally against the run of play. Look at round 1 of the first fight, THE MOMENTUM WAS DEFINITELY WITH PAC after round 1, and yet he did not win that fight, so assuming anything about the fourth fight just because Pac had a couple of good rounds is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE call imho...... especially considering that Pac got KTFO.

Pacquiao was much more dominant early in the first fight, and yet Marquez turned that around.

Jeez dude, we are talking about Marquez here, legendary recuperation, legendary endurance, the master of adjustments. It is a huge call to insinuate that Pac had things under control and would have definitely won the fight, especially considering that he got KTFO.

You cant ever count Marquez out, he will adapt and make adjustments.

Originally Posted by streetwaves

At one point you quoted me saying "I felt Marquez won the third fight", and responded as if I had said the complete opposite. I didn't know what the **** I said wrong.

OK, sorry, I didnt realise that. Yup I was under the impression that you had earlier stated you felt Pac won the third fight. My mistake.

Originally Posted by streetwaves

I'm not necessarily saying Pacquiao would have gotten the KO, though he was looking quite dominant after the 5th round. However, I had him winning I think every round except for 3 because of the knockdown (I'd have to re-watch to be sure). That's not something we've seen in any of the previous fights. We haven't seen Marquez, who by now knows Manny like the back of his hand, take as many of the sorts of shots he was taking. He was having problems with Manny that night. The counter-argument of course is that the cost for Manny to look that good was eventually getting KO'd. Of course that's possible.

Aaah ok, so you aren't overstating the last fight, I get your point, the momentum at that stage was definitely with Pac for sure.

I agreed with the official score, but I think I had one round in reverse. I had 2, 3(10-8), or maybe it was the other way, but Pac was up by 1 point anyway..... give Marquez time to adjust, he has been taken to the trenches many times, and been in trouble early a number of times as well, but nobody has ever knocked him out, and there is only one fighter on the planet who he could not adjust to..... and his name is not Pacquiao.

Originally Posted by streetwaves

Exactly, but this is sort of my point. These guys are damned close; not in every individual category, but when everything is added up, they both give each other headaches. Believe me, even though Marquez's counter-punching is effective against Pacquiao, he's had easier opponents to deal with.

Based on the fact that Marquez had never even knocked Manny down, and Manny had knocked Marquez down 4 times, you'd have to admit that Pacquiao's odds of KOing Marquez were higher. I never, ever thought I'd see what happened happen. I think it's reasonable to say that after round 5, the odds of Manny stopping Marquez were much higher than what Marquez accomplished. Still, he did it, and that's my point. The fact that Marquez is who he is - an incredibly skilled, tough, and intelligent fighter - helped to make that outcome possible, despite being improbable.

Of course. I'm just saying Pacquiao was dishing out more punishment than in the past, and so it very easily could have gone the other way. I don't call knockout punches "lucky". At the very most I call them "fortunate", which I don't think is something that can truly be argued with. Marquez gambled that his plan to KO Pacquiao would work, and all plans are gambles. He could have come up short. It's part of the game. Manny gambled on his strategy, and it was working until Marquez smacked him with that vicious, perfectly placed sh1t.

Yeah, while it lasted, that fight was awesome. It was vintage sh1t, Manny getting knocked down was crazy enough and then he returned the favor. What unfolded was amazing in itself although it did leave me wanting more.

So conclusion: in my book, as long as one doesn't grow old overnight, they're going to have great, competitive fights every time. If they both show up literally trying to tear each other apart, you might get the sort of outcome we got on Saturday. I just think it's disrespectful to two great fighters to say Manny got KO'd because he's garbage / Marquez KO'd Manny because Manny is garbage. **** happens in boxing as it does everywhere else. I believe in appreciating the two great fighters.

Some great points right there, good post. There are a couple of things I would like to mention but struggling for time right now. I will try to get back to this tonight. Good talking to you, apologies once again for my misunderstanding.

[streetwaves]

Originally Posted by stretchedout

I think that you are understating the first fight, and overstating the fourth, and I think you missed my point about the first fight.

The fourth fight was not "mostly dominated by Pacquiao's movement, feints, and aggression"..... 1.5 rounds were.

Clearly 1.5 rounds were more dominant, but he basically won every non-KD round. He also returned the favor in that respect. But I think you realize later in this post that I'm not saying Pacquiao would have gotten the KO, but that it certainly was a relatively strong possibility. I object to suggesting Marquez got 'lucky' - that diminishes the accomplishment, and shows insufficient respect for a master like Marquez. However, clearly with the way the fight was going at that moment, something very improbable happened.

The point I was trying to make is..... you saying that the momentum was with Pac, so therefore [scenario] would have definitely happened, is totally against the run of play. Look at round 1 of the first fight, THE MOMENTUM WAS DEFINITELY WITH PAC after round 1, and yet he did not win that fight, so assuming anything about the fourth fight just because Pac had a couple of good rounds is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE call imho...... especially considering that Pac got KTFO.

Yeah, I'm not saying that though. But I also am trying to make the point that it's not just 1 round we're talking about here. Round 1 of the first fight set Marquez straight and helped him realize what he was up against. Yeah, in the 4th fight, Pacquiao didn't destroy Marquez for all 6.9 rounds but he did beat him for most of them. I'm saying that's something we hadn't seen before.

Pacquiao was much more dominant early in the first fight, and yet Marquez turned that around.

Jeez dude, we are talking about Marquez here, legendary recuperation, legendary endurance, the master of adjustments. It is a huge call to insinuate that Pac had things under control and would have definitely won the fight, especially considering that he got KTFO.

You cant ever count Marquez out, he will adapt and make adjustments.

No no, my only objection is to the idea that "Pac got stretched because Marquez is his daddy". Marquez did a tremendous thing, but my point is that it was improbable. I had picked JMM to win the fight but there is a certain element of "this **** happens in boxing" when it comes to a KO of that nature. I just object to acting as if this was coming all along, that Pacquiao is such a relentless mindless fighter that he was bound to get KO'd. I disagree with that. What happened was highly improbable given what we've seen from them in the past, and especially considering the state of the fight at the time.

But I'm not saying Pacquiao had it in the bag. It ain't over till it's over, especially against a guy like Marquez.

OK, sorry, I didnt realise that. Yup I was under the impression that you had earlier stated you felt Pac won the third fight. My mistake.

No problem, I apologize for my part in any of the confusion. No hard feelings, I don't hold grudges.

Aaah ok, so you aren't overstating the last fight, I get your point, the momentum at that stage was definitely with Pac for sure.

I agreed with the official score, but I think I had one round in reverse. I had 2, 3(10-8), or maybe it was the other way, but Pac was up by 1 point anyway..... give Marquez time to adjust, he has been taken to the trenches many times, and been in trouble early a number of times as well, but nobody has ever knocked him out, and there is only one fighter on the planet who he could not adjust to..... and his name is not Pacquiao.

All true. It's very possible he could have adjusted once again. Which is why I was sort of sad to see the fight end so soon. It was turning out to be better than expected.

Also, I didn't want to see either guy get KO'd at all. It happens sometimes but I like both fighters too much to want to see them go out like that, so yeah there's some sympathy for Pacquiao this time around since he was on the receiving end. I would have played devil's advocate for Marquez had something like that happened to him, and I would have been equally right to do so.

Some great points right there, good post. There are a couple of things I would like to mention but struggling for time right now. I will try to get back to this tonight. Good talking to you, apologies once again for my misunderstanding.

No problem. I would like to know your opinion on this though, because this is controversial: I think Manny would do better against Mayweather than Marquez did (or can, even at 100%). Styles make fights. I just think Mayweather's style is a nightmare for Marquez, and while Mayweather would probably pose similar problems for Pacquiao as to what Marquez does and make them even more pronounced, I think Manny would end up at the very least having been more competitive than JMM. That said, I still see Floyd winning a decision.

That's basically just a case of a triangle theory not working once again. JMM beats Pacquiao, Floyd beats JMM, and Floyd still beats Pacquiao in my opinion but doesn't shut him down as badly as he did JMM. Totally different animals.

[wizard king]

Look at all these clowns trying make a case for PAC guess what it's over PAC got knock the fuuuuuccckkkk out, get over it thier is not going to be a 5th fight
Shouda coulda woulda but PAC got his shiiiiiiiiiitttt pushed in

[streetwaves]

Originally Posted by wizard king

Look at all these clowns trying make a case for PAC guess what it's over PAC got knock the fuuuuuccckkkk out, get over it thier is not going to be a 5th fight
Shouda coulda woulda but PAC got his shiiiiiiiiiitttt pushed in

Yo yo yo
Look at all these clowns trying
Make a case for PAC guess
What it's over?
PAC got knock
Get over it thier

[wizard king]

Originally Posted by streetwaves

Yo yo yo
Look at all these clowns trying
Make a case for PAC guess
What it's over?
PAC got knock
Get over it thier

The butthurt in this one is strong bahahaha
Give it a rest the series is over jmm by ko

[licari123]

Lol "Pac gave marquez a chance to redeem himself." The reason the second and third fight were made was to determine a clear winner and obviously that didn't work out