How high do you rank Miguel Cotto?

[EDD1]

Originally Posted by fenixbb

First of all Cotto was still not the best Cotto when he fought Mayweather. Cotto was like you said beaten bloody by Margacheato. It was also not proven that he (Margacheato) did not use plaster. But somehow since he was caught Cheatos well known power "vanished". Mayweather said you are not the same when you are beaten, ask Hatton. Cotto beat a better Mosley (even if it a close fight) than Mayweather. Mayweather is the smartest fighter on the planet. He knows the right time to choose his opponents. So IF Cotto is not an elite fighter than Mayweather has beaten just a B+ fighter , who caused him some problems. Oh I forgot beating a smaller Marquez and outweighing him , beating a super lightweight Hatton makes you an elite fighter . Which was the fight in your opinion that Cotto should have taken to be considered as an elite fighter ? Mayweather beat Zab Judah and was knocked down by him but that makes Mayweather still an elite fighter right ? But when Cotto beat Judah that gives Cotto nothing but a win. I do not like it if somebody writes so much negative things about Cotto and discredits him.
What the best have done and continue to do is being smart and fight the right fights at the right time and make people believe that they have beaten the best fighter in their primes. What I liked about Cotto was his warrior mentality his toughness his will and his character. Cotto is not the same fighter anymore since the fight with Cheato. He was not smart enough and accepted the conditions for the Pacquiao fight. Floyd would have never do that.
Mayweather for example has skills but nobody gets critics for nothing. As of right know I am not interested in boxing anymore like I was in the past. I did not even watched one 24/7 episode of Pacquiao Marquez and I will probably just look for the result tomorrow. There is a theory, which is called "Game Theory" it says that if two instances are equally strong than none of them would dare to attack each other. Events which prove this theory are the cold war and in boxing it is the Mayweather vs Pacqiao or Pacquiao vs Mayweather fight. But Cotto fought in my opinion anybody in front of him and that made him an elite fighter.

Bien dicho,,,

Elite fighter he was, one of my favorite fights of his was against Lovemore Ndou, you could tell there was something special about the fighter...

[Brother Jay]

Originally Posted by fenixbb

First of all Cotto was still not the best Cotto when he fought Mayweather. Cotto was like you said beaten bloody by Margacheato. It was also not proven that he (Margacheato) did not use plaster. But somehow since he was caught Cheatos well known power "vanished".

Hold on ... how could he prove that he didn't? What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense and is just a failed attempt at devil's advocacy.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Mayweather said you are not the same when you are beaten, ask Hatton. Cotto beat a better Mosley (even if it a close fight) than Mayweather.

Well if you really believe that, then what does that say for Manny Pacquiao who since fighting Diaz, has only targeted fighters coming off of the biggest losses of their careers? Cotto only beat Margarito AFTER Margarito was KO'd by Shane. So which is it?

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Mayweather is the smartest fighter on the planet. He knows the right time to choose his opponents.

Interesting that you would say that the man who has probably fought more #1, 2 and 3 ranked opponents than any other current fighter somehow "chooses" his opponents. Who else do you hold to this standard?

Cotto? Pacquiao? Martinez? Bradley? Hell .. it took a Super Six tournament to get the entire SMW division to face the level of opposition that Mayweather does consistently in every division. And that, my man, is a fact. #1, 2 & 3 in every division.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

So IF Cotto is not an elite fighter than Mayweather has beaten just a B+ fighter , who caused him some problems.

I don't know how they teach math in your country or neck of the woods, but Cotto won I believe 2-3 rounds out of 12. What kind of problems did Cotto cause in YOUR mind?

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Oh I forgot beating a smaller Marquez and outweighing him , beating a super lightweight Hatton makes you an elite fighter.

Uhhh ... fighting DLH while DLH weighed in at around 170lbs while Floyd came in at around 147-150 is tremendous. Same with Ortiz, who was the #2 WW in the world. Notice how Floyd fights them where they are comfortable, while Pacquiao has to drain them down? There's a reason for that. Not everyone can do what the best can, like the best can.

Meanwhile you forget that Hatton was undefeated and chased Floyd after Floyd went up to WW because Tszyu wouldn't fight him.

Try again.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Which was the fight in your opinion that Cotto should have taken to be considered as an elite fighter?

I never said that there were fights Cotto should have taken. I said that Cotto never beat a reigning champion until he moved up to jrMW, and that's yet another fact that seems to have slipped by you.

How about fighting a #1 and winning once in a while? Not just Cotto either. When was the last #1 Pacquiao fought? Or Martinez?

Today's boxers get away with bullsh*t and vacant titles but beat their chests like they just dethroned a bunch of champions! That sh*t might work with weak minded peasants, but real fans don't get jedi mind tricked like that.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Mayweather beat Zab Judah and was knocked down by him but that makes Mayweather still an elite fighter right ? But when Cotto beat Judah that gives Cotto nothing but a win.

First, are you implying that a knock down prevents a fighter from being seen as elite? Your mouth just exposed your credentials as a card carrying imbecile. Seriously? Floyd dominated that fight when Judah was the #2 fighter@WW. No fan, not even Floyd fans hailed that fight as anything special because Judah had already been exposed by Tszyu, then by Baldomir. But here you are trying your very best to expose some nonexistent bias.

And by the time Cotto faced Judah, please tell us Judah's rank and wasn't he coming off 2 losses and a no contest? I think you've answered your own question.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

I do not like it if somebody writes so much negative things about Cotto and discredits him.

What have I written that was negative?

Did Cotto ever beat a champion before Foreman? No.

Wasn't Cotto's best win over Mosley, who was coming back down to WW after finding out he couldn't hand with the boys at jrMW? Yes.

At what weight did Cotto avenge his first loss, capture his first championship and become the #1 in a division? Junior Middleweight!

What have I written that isn't true?

Oh I forgot who I was talking to ... and facts have never made a dent in an emotional argument.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

What the best have done and continue to do is being smart and fight the right fights at the right time and make people believe that they have beaten the best fighter in their primes.

Cotto fights almost everybody, but he mostly loses when he steps up to anyone who fights at a world class level. The best simply have to fight whoever is #1, 2 or 3 and WIN ... then they have done their job. Maybe you don't understand that yet, but give yourself time.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

What I liked about Cotto was his warrior mentality his toughness his will and his character. Cotto is not the same fighter anymore since the fight with Cheato. He was not smart enough and accepted the conditions for the Pacquiao fight. Floyd would have never do that.

Warrior mentality? Hahaha .. Cotto is a warrior because he comes to fight, but my friend, a warrior is not necessarily a winner. A winner is usually the thinking man who comes to fight smarter, not harder. The best usually figure that out early on and learn to hit without getting hit back in return. That's why that type of winner historically has been successful in boxing for over a century.

If these fights were to the death, all the credit to the guy with the "warrior's mentality" would have to be etched on to his tombstone.

Remember that.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

Mayweather for example has skills but nobody gets critics for nothing.

Wow. I have no idea what the hell you were trying to say here ^^.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

As of right know I am not interested in boxing anymore like I was in the past. I did not even watched one 24/7 episode of Pacquiao Marquez and I will probably just look for the result tomorrow.

Uhhh .. okaaay?

Originally Posted by fenixbb

There is a theory, which is called "Game Theory" it says that if two instances are equally strong than none of them would dare to attack each other. Events which prove this theory are the cold war and in boxing it is the Mayweather vs Pacqiao or Pacquiao vs Mayweather fight.

Umm .. if you think that Mayweather and Pacquiao are equally as strong then I cannot help you. The fight isn't happening because of money, not because anyone really believes that Pacquiao has any better than a puncher's chance of beating Floyd. And I don't remember the last time we saw Pacquiao's power give anyone the impression he could take someone out with it.

Hatton was it? There's a difference between attrition and KO power.

Originally Posted by fenixbb

But Cotto fought in my opinion anybody in front of him and that made him an elite fighter.

That doesn't make anyone elite. Good god, man. If that were true, then Demarcus Corley could be considered elite. He isn't, even though he had Cotto badly hurt and Miguel had to get dirty to survive. Remember that?

Cotto is a solid boxer who always came to give his best. His attitude is that of a warrior, but even then he quit against Pacquiao but his corner wouldn't let him.

Cotto is tough, determined and is better than 95% of the other boxers in the divisions he's competed in. But its that 5% that separates him from the elite in truth.

Personally I think Cotto should have got a new trainer back when he was at jrWW. He could have refined what he new while working on honing his tools with a different approach. That and a better conditioning trainer early on because Cotto seems to gas in some of his fights.

Unfortunately for him, Cotto was a loyal guy to his team for too long and I believe that right there cost him the improvement that would have led to him being elite.

I enjoyed posting with you.

Salud.

[fenixbb]

Hold on ... how could he prove that he didn't? What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense and is just a failed attempt at devil's advocacy.

No problem I know that this would be to difficult for you. You said to me that I cannot prove that Margarito cheated. But you also cannot prove that he did not.

Well if you really believe that, then what does that say for Manny Pacquiao who since fighting Diaz, has only targeted fighters coming off of the biggest losses of their careers? Cotto only beat Margarito AFTER Margarito was KO'd by Shane. So which is it?

Did I praise Pacquiao what are you talking about ? And yes Pacquiao is beating fighters who are coming of losses only Pacmaniacs do not believe it !

Interesting that you would say that the man who has probably fought more #1, 2 and 3 ranked opponents than any other current fighter somehow "chooses" his opponents. Who else do you hold to this standard?

Cotto? Pacquiao? Martinez? Bradley? Hell .. it took a Super Six tournament to get the entire SMW division to face the level of opposition that Mayweather does consistently in every division. And that, my man, is a fact. #1, 2 & 3 in every division.

According to you somebody should defeat a title holder then he can be cosidered a champion ? Berto won a vacated title and lost it to Ortiz. Ok then Victor Ortiz was a great threat to Mayweather Jr. ? Are you really believing it ?

I don't know how they teach math in your country or neck of the woods, but Cotto won I believe 2-3 rounds out of 12. What kind of problems did Cotto cause in YOUR mind?

Learn to read or go back to the primary school . I said that Cotto caused Mayweather some problems I did not say that he won every round against him. Mayweather bleed from his nose and was hit by Cotto not everybody is able to do that.

Uhhh ... fighting DLH while DLH weighed in at around 170lbs while Floyd came in at around 147-150 is tremendous. Same with Ortiz, who was the #2 WW in the world. Notice how Floyd fights them where they are comfortable, while Pacquiao has to drain them down? There's a reason for that. Not everyone can do what the best can, like the best can.

Meanwhile you forget that Hatton was undefeated and chased Floyd after Floyd went up to WW because Tszyu wouldn't fight him.

Try again.

And the Marquez felt also comfortable right. If Cotto would have done this then would you give him credit ? Yes Hatton was undefeated and I give Floyd credit for that.

I never said that there were fights Cotto should have taken. I said that Cotto never beat a reigning champion until he moved up to jrMW, and that's yet another fact that seems to have slipped by you.

How about fighting a #1 and winning once in a while? Not just Cotto either. When was the last #1 Pacquiao fought? Or Martinez?

Today's boxers get away with bullsh*t and vacant titles but beat their chests like they just dethroned a bunch of champions! That sh*t might work with weak minded peasants, but real fans don't get jedi mind tricked like that.

Please write down who Cotto should have fought. You are just saying consequentially that Cotto has taken the easier fights. Clottey has vacated his title for the Cotto fight.

First, are you implying that a knock down prevents a fighter from being seen as elite? Your mouth just exposed your credentials as a card carrying imbecile. Seriously? Floyd dominated that fight when Judah was the #2 fighter@WW. No fan, not even Floyd fans hailed that fight as anything special because Judah had already been exposed by Tszyu, then by Baldomir. But here you are trying your very best to expose some nonexistent bias.

And by the time Cotto faced Judah, please tell us Judah's rank and wasn't he coming off 2 losses and a no contest? I think you've answered your own question.

No I was not implying that a knock down prevents a fighter from being seen as elite. Cotto vs Judah was just a big test for Cotto and he beat Judah in a brutal way.

What have I written that was negative?

Did Cotto ever beat a champion before Foreman? No.

Wasn't Cotto's best win over Mosley, who was coming back down to WW after finding out he couldn't hand with the boys at jrMW? Yes.

At what weight did Cotto avenge his first loss, capture his first championship and become the #1 in a division? Junior Middleweight!

What have I written that isn't true?

Oh I forgot who I was talking to ... and facts have never made a dent in an emotional argument.

You are exposing yourself. You said that a fighter should beat a champion to be considered a champion ? Ok then that would make Pacquiao a champion he beat for example David Diaz who was a champion. LOL that makes really sense. Moreover a win over Pacqiao would give Mayweather no creadit because Pacqiao does not have a belt right ? So if Mosley have had a belt before the Cotto fight would you give Cotto credit for beating Mosley ? Seriously ? But I know who I am talking to ...

Cotto fights almost everybody, but he mostly loses when he steps up to anyone who fights at a world class level. The best simply have to fight whoever is #1, 2 or 3 and WIN ... then they have done their job. Maybe you don't understand that yet, but give yourself time.

Are you really saying that Margarito was a world class fighter ? He was caught when he was trying to cheat. After the Margarito fight Cotto was not the same fighter anymore it is just that simple. I know that it is difficult for you to understand that . The currently No. 1 fighter in welterweight is Bradley so Mayweather should fight Bradley next instead of Pacquiao ? Again, please suggest who Cotto should have fought back then.

Warrior mentality? Hahaha .. Cotto is a warrior because he comes to fight, but my friend, a warrior is not necessarily a winner. A winner is usually the thinking man who comes to fight smarter, not harder. The best usually figure that out early on and learn to hit without getting hit back in return. That's why that type of winner historically has been successful in boxing for over a century.

If these fights were to the death, all the credit to the guy with the "warrior's mentality" would have to be etched on to his tombstone.

Remember that.

Cotto is a warrior because he fought everybody in front of him he needed no catchweight or plaster. I did not say that Mayweather or anybody else should
fight till to the death. You are interpreting to much none sense.

Wow. I have no idea what the hell you were trying to say here ^^.

Mayweather got critics for fighting weaker competition. Have you ever watched HBO ? That is a big network .

Umm .. if you think that Mayweather and Pacquiao are equally as strong then I cannot help you. The fight isn't happening because of money, not because anyone really believes that Pacquiao has any better than a puncher's chance of beating Floyd. And I don't remember the last time we saw Pacquiao's power give anyone the impression he could take someone out with it.

Hatton was it? There's a difference between attrition and KO power.

So you really believe that Pacquiao is no threat to Mayweather and
vice versa ? Do not forget that the fight did not take place because of the accusations of PED. Now it is about the money because one side believes that the other side is weak. If both sides really want it they could do it.
No problem if you do not get it.

That doesn't make anyone elite. Good god, man. If that were true, then Demarcus Corley could be considered elite. He isn't, even though he had Cotto badly hurt and Miguel had to get dirty to survive. Remember that?

No Corley was not an elite fighter but you do not understand the business of boxing. Young fighters must be build up. Yes Cotto was hurt against Corley so was Mayweather. Mayweather was also hurt against Shane Mosley but I give him credit for coming back and beating Mosley.

Cotto is a solid boxer who always came to give his best. His attitude is that of a warrior, but even then he quit against Pacquiao but his corner wouldn't let him.

No his father wanted to stop the fight and he was overruled by Cotto's corner. Cotto was fighting without a real trainer, he was weigh drained and was beaten by a cheater. That is my opinion. By the way I am not from Puerto Rico.

Cotto is tough, determined and is better than 95% of the other boxers in the divisions he's competed in. But its that 5% that separates him from the elite in truth.

Personally I think Cotto should have got a new trainer back when he was at jrWW. He could have refined what he new while working on honing his tools with a different approach. That and a better conditioning trainer early on because Cotto seems to gas in some of his fights.

Unfortunately for him, Cotto was a loyal guy to his team for too long and I believe that right there cost him the improvement that would have led to him being elite.

I enjoyed posting with you.

Salud.

Well said. Yes he should have changed his trainer early. He should not have accepted the terms for the Pacquiao fight and he needed a real trainer for the Pacquiao fight. Cotto could have been a so much better fighter today. It is really sad. I enjoyed posting with you too.