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#11
Old 12-07-2012, 09:34 AM
Birkonian
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A top 10 Junior Welter of the new millenium, a cloudy time at Welter, and a current top 10 Junior Middle. He is just a solid, no-nonsense fighter.

In my opinion he has never beaten anybody of real note at 154. He shouldn't have been so hasty in jumping to 154 after the Pacquiao loss, he has never looked as effective at that weight. I would have preferred to see him stick around at 147, he was more than capable of beating up on guys like Victor Ortiz, Andre Berto, Devon Alexander, Marcos Maidana, Amir Khan, Mike Jones, Paulie Malignaggi II, Vyachaslev Senchenko at Welter.

I actually feel nostalgia when I think back to the time when you had the trio of young undefeated fighters at 140, Cotto, Hatton and Mayweather. All looked great, could have hours of fun debating which one would come out on top.

A fight I'd love to see is Cotto vs. Josesito Lopez.
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#12
Old 12-07-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by akScoundrel View Post
Juan manuel marquez is just a solid gatekeeper too, right?
Is this nutcase comparing an ATG, a 1st ballot HoFer, and one of the best Mexican fighters of all time to Miguel Cotto?
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#13
Old 12-07-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Earl Hickey View Post
yeah but Cotto lost that one.


You know, he was a decent B+ level fighter

The word "warrior" gets thrown around too much, "warriors" don't take knees, quit, and run away like he has done many times.

He was B+, he beat the guys he was supposed to beat and lost to the ones he was supposed to lose to, his resume is good but not great and he was a bully type fighter who was great when things were going his way but not so good under pressure.
He got the nod in a close fight, you can't call it a robbery.

I'd say he's more than B+, he's a 3 division champ who was competitive against Floyd. And unlike Zab who blew his load early and gassed out down the stretch, Cotto was competitive throughout the fight.

He's not good when things don't go his way? Did you watch the Torres fight? Did you watch the Corley fight? He was badly hurt in both fights and came back from the brink of defeat.
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#14
Old 12-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WARQUEZ View Post
Is this nutcase comparing an ATG, a 1st ballot HoFer, and one of the best Mexican fighters of all time to Miguel Cotto?
And how did marquez's performances against the elites turn out.

Vs pac- 0-2-1, arguably and imo 1-1-1

Vs mayweather- was purely outclassed and dominated

You tell me...

Edit: Im not denying marquez being a great fighter, just throwing a mexican nationalistic's logic back at them.

Last edited by ~AK49~; 12-07-2012 at 10:06 AM.
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#15
Old 12-07-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by akScoundrel View Post
And how did marquez's performances against the elites turn out.

Vs pac- 0-3, arguably and imo 1-3

Vs mayweather- was purely outclassed and dominated

You tell me...
Even in your opinion, that one Pac win is better than whatever Cotto has done in the past 5 years, maybe even more.

Name 1 significant victory he has had in his entire career that even comes close to a Pacquiao victory?
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#16
Old 12-07-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by WARQUEZ View Post
Even in your opinion, that one Pac win is better than whatever Cotto has done in the past 5 years, maybe even more.

Name 1 significant victory he has had in his entire career that even comes close to a Pacquiao victory?
Beating a mosley that pacquaio/team pac was scurred of. A mosley who still had fight in him, and wasnt afraid to pull the trigger.

Pac is getting olderr, slower and less mobile. His game is becoming decreasingly stale. A great fighter no doubt, but people like pacquiao/roy jones jr/ etc relied/rely on their physical advantages. When those advantages fade away, boxers have more success against them. Think roy jones and hopkins. At one point in time roy was a beast, now a win over him is insignificant.

Last edited by ~AK49~; 12-07-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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#17
Old 12-07-2012, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by akScoundrel View Post
Beating a mosley that pacquaio/team pac was scurred of. A mosley who still had fight in him, and wasnt afraid to pull the trigger.

Pac is getting olderr, slower and less mobile. His game is becoming decreasingly stale. A great fighter no doubt, but people like pacquiao/roy jones jr/ etc relied/rely on their physical advantages. When those advantages fade away, boxers have more success against them. Think roy jones and hopkins. At one point in time roy was a beast, now a win over him is insignificant.
I agree with you on this. As you and the other poster mentioned, Marquez is an ATG and he'll go into the HOF for sure, no question or doubt about that, however a simple nationalistic fan will not change his mind on his views. They're already set in their ways.
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#18
Old 12-07-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Light_Speed View Post
He got the nod in a close fight, you can't call it a robbery.

I'd say he's more than B+, he's a 3 division champ who was competitive against Floyd. And unlike Zab who blew his load early and gassed out down the stretch, Cotto was competitive throughout the fight.

He's not good when things don't go his way? Did you watch the Torres fight? Did you watch the Corley fight? He was badly hurt in both fights and came back from the brink of defeat.

people also seem to forget what a beating he took against margarito before he took those knees.

after the first few rounds margarito started putting his hands on cotto, and after he middle of the fight he really started to break down.

margarito almost certainly had loaded gloves in that fight.



down the line we'll get a deeper look into the margarito wrap scandal. people are more likely to tell the truth after a long time has passed, and there's no more chance of making money in boxing. sometimes they do it for an opportunity, and other times they're just feeling bad on the inside.


cotto will be remembered most by me for the margarito scandal. he was a very promising fighter. maybe not the type who could have been a great, but a very promising fighter. he was never the same after the margarito fight.



he's certainly not an "ATG," or one of the top 100 fighters in the history of the sport. i think most of the ATG would pound miguel cotto at 140, 147, and 154. at 140 he could be hurt. at 147 he could be made to back up, even though he'd often try and be an aggressor. and at 154 he was small and had lost much of his offensive potency, relying on his boxing.

does he fit into the next 100? probably somewhere near the back, i'd say. i certainly have to go through the top 200 first, and i'm not going to do that ,

he will undoubtedly get in to the hall of fame. the new voting demographic is young and relatively poorly learned when it comes to the caliber of fighters in there. i'm not sure they'll even think of him as a lesser tier hall of famer.



his fights with torres, judah, mosley, margarito, and clottey were awesome. his first few rounds with pacquiao were awesome, but he got hurt and all but gave up after the second knockdown (if memory serves right. i probably have not seen that fight in a year.)
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#19
Old 12-07-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by akScoundrel View Post
Beating a mosley that pacquaio/team pac was scurred of. A mosley who still had fight in him, and wasnt afraid to pull the trigger.

Pac is getting olderr, slower and less mobile. His game is becoming decreasingly stale. A great fighter no doubt, but people like pacquiao/roy jones jr/ etc relied/rely on their physical advantages. When those advantages fade away, boxers have more success against them. Think roy jones and hopkins. At one point in time roy was a beast, now a win over him is insignificant.
Please do not tell me this man just compared a semi faded Mosley, and a super past prime Roy Jones to Manny Pacquiao who at the point before fighting Warquez the 3rd time(a 38 year old past prime Warquez)only lost one fight(2nd Warquez) in the past 7 years, and at that time in his last 7 fights you can argue he lost a total of 4 rounds or less.

Stop. I know you love Miguel but comon bro.
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#20
Old 12-07-2012, 10:31 AM
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Please do not tell me this man just compared a semi faded Mosley, and a super past prime Roy Jones to Manny Pacquiao who at the point before fighting Warquez the 3rd time(a 38 year old past prime Warquez)only lost one fight(2nd Warquez) in the past 7 years, and at that time in his last 7 fights you can argue he lost a total of 4 rounds or less.

Stop. I know you love Miguel but comon bro.
Mannys fading bro. A sad but true story. Still waiting on him to fight a full round, for a full fight. Never again will we see an 08-09 pacquaio imo.

Im not denying marquez being a great fighter. He is a great fighter, and is one of my favs. Im just throwing the logic of mexican nationilistics on the cotto/gatekeeper comments. Styles make fights, and losses happen. If a loss hasnt happened, chances are you have cherrypicked your way through your career and havent consistently faced the best.
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