Gonna be more suspicious
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Honestly I find it impossible too do any of these H2H lists given that triangle theories are non existent, can never decide on a set order, at first look your list is sound but then I'd swap Frazier and Liston around, but Frazier has a much better chance of beating Ali (Who I'd still have at #1) then Liston, but I'd give Liston an obvious much better chance of beating Foreman then I would Frazier. Add in another 15 or so names too go through for each boxer and it gets kinda ridiculous.
Great great list Jab.
I disagree with one thing though. Lewis should be #1.
I have broken down a series of fights 'fantasy fights' h2h regarding Lennox.
Lewis vs Joe Louis
Lewis made a career out of destroying big punchers. Now did any of them punch as hard as Joe Joe, debatable. That being said Louis need to get inside on Lennox to win this one. If Joe can constantly land those lefts and inside combinations to the body of Lennox and some to the head, he will make it a very long night.
I just don't see how Joe can consistantly do this without taking massive punishment himself though.
Lewis would be the best all around fighter that Louis fought in terms of overall power,speed,skills and ring generalship. Joe fought Buddy Bear, Buddy Bear is like a 4th grade Lennox Lewis. Lewis have too much a combination of size, power, skills, jab, and that big right hand for the much smaller Joe to overcome.
The upper cuts Lewis will land as Joe gets inside will be too much and too devasting.
Joe will give it a great go, he is a ruthless stalker and one of the great finishers. Once Joe gets you hurt, it's very hard for you to recover. The one thing we DO see from Lewis is that he recovers from being hurt very quickly. Outside of the two fluke ko's, every fight Lewis was hurt in, he came back stronger.
Vitali-Bruno-Mercer-Briggs-Mason he was hurt in all of them and he came back. Obviously not one of those guys were any where near Joe's caliber, I'll admit that much.
Still I just don't see Joe's combinations,skills,power and heart over coming Lewis's own combinations, skills, SUPERIOR SIZE, superior jab, superior power, and equal heart.
Last edited by FightScorer; 12-04-2012 at 12:55 AM.
Lewis vs Larry Holmes
Let's take a look real quick.
Larry Holmes arguably had the slightly better jab. He will be giving up a slight height advantage, a pretty big overall size advantage and a slight reach advantage.
Holmes was a great boxer, and loved getting into jab battles. The issue with that is Holmes will WIN the jab battle against Lewis, that's actually a bad thing. It will force LL to unleash the beast within him and that only comes out when he feels like it. When seeing that he is being out jabbed and out pointed, Lewis will take the battle inside and hit Ole Larry with a variety of upper cuts and Lennox is the greatest street fighter of all times. Larry will not be able to understand why he suddenly have a massive cut below his eye.
Lewis is a 5 dem Boxer, a jabber, puncher, mover. When the jabber start getting out jabbed(something that I honestly doubt, but let's just say he does) he will become the inside puncher aggressive super fighter that he is.
Holmes getting hit with a Lewis right hand is inevitable. Lewis is not Ernie Shavers. Holmes WILL not be getting up.
Larry struggled with Witherspoon,Williams,Norton and Cooney. All tall fighters who could jab back at him and who could attack and impose their own size.
Lewis is far superior to any one of those four chipmunks.
I honestly see a close jab battle, until Lewis start getting to Holmes on the inside and hitting him with a combination of upper cuts, ending Holmes around the 8th.
Lewis vs Ali
In regards to Lewis vs the great one ALI.
Can Lewis out box Ali?
Lewis was a very good outside fighter. He got a good left hook, did well in combination bursts and had a massive right hand. His balance is something that people over look as well. For someone that’s 6’5’6’6 240+, he got great balance for such a super heavyweight. His jab against a fast footed killer will be a very deadly weapon and add in his variety of punches, he was very good technically. All these points indicate Lennox had a real chance of out boxing Ali should Ali attempt to keep this a tactical fight.
Ali got blinding hand speed and great foot works. His punches weren’t the hardest, and I seriously doubt he can hurt a fully focused Lewis. Rahman and Mccall caught him unaware and at a time he was seriously lacking in focus. In h2h match ups you take the best versions. The best versions of LL would have been able to absorb any Ali punches, he fought a very long line of huge punchers from the early 90’s all the way up to the early 2000’s. Mason-Ruddock-Morrison-Briggs-Golota-Bruno-Tua-Grant-Vitali, not one was able to floor him.
What would most likely have happened
Ali got great recovering powers, he is capable of being caught though. What we do know is Lewis have definitely fought numerous punchers that hit harder then Ali, but Ali had fought only 2 fighters who ‘might’ hit harder then Lewis. Weather or not Foreman and Shavers hit harder then LL is up for serious debate. People forget that Ali is honestly fundamentally flawed on defense and used his superior reflexes along with speed to get him out of trouble. Lennox will eventually catch him with a thundering right hand the likes of that Ali never ever felt before and knock him out late.
Lewis vs Tyson
Tyson was often troubled by super heavies. Even during his prime, he became easily frustrated when fighting tall HW'S.
Tyson did have freakish reflexes speed and his bob-weave style would create a difficult fight for Lewis.
Lennox in his prime though was 243-245, 6'5 and had massive strength. He will use his superior size and strength to smother Mike and take away a lot of Mike's primary weapons.
Tyson's style, was perfectly suited for Lewis. If the Lewis jab can keep Tyson at bay, it's a wide UD, with big right hands in between.
If Tyson slips inside which he is prone to do during his prime, Lewis can use that right upper cut or tie him./lean on him. Lewis's superior strength will make it really really difficult for Tyson to get any sort of inside work going and he definitely won't allow Tyson to push him back.
Lewis TKO 11 or UD
Last edited by FightScorer; 12-01-2012 at 10:23 PM.
Lewis vs Rocky Marciano
Rocky would have been brutalized. Lewis's size alone would have dominated Rocky.
Rocky fought his best aat 185 lbs, he was 5' 10" with a 68" reach.
Lewis would come into this fight at 246 just for the Rock and he's 6' 5" with an 84" reach. Rocky got great heart and he will be more then willing to pay the price in an attempt to get inside on Lewis. He will pay with his very body and soul.
This is not even a fair match up and anybody with an ounce of knowledge in regards to the HW Division knows this.
Lewis vs Prime Foreman
This is a very interesting match up. Prime Foreman's stamina was only shot to **** when he punched himself out. Lewis can not do this and hope to survive. Lennox do not have the chin of an Ali and to be honest it's not LL'S style to rope a dope.
There's two possible scenarios here.
1- Lewis goes aggressive mode and attempt to out physical the physical beast in Young George. This is very risky because even though LL is bigger and heavier, Young George could very well be slightly stronger and pack a slightly bigger punch. That being said, I trust in Lewis's heart more then I trust in Foreman's and despite what people might think is 'advantage Foreman' I see a all out aggressive LL bomb Foreman to the ground within 2-3 rounds.
Foreman is easily caught with big bombs early and the truth of the matter is, Foreman was never tested against another Super Heavy. Lewis was tested against numerous 6'4+ super heavys. None of them were quite as good as Foreman, but his experience in dealing with fellow giants definitely give him the edge in a h2h.
2- The more likely scenario will be LL impose his superior size and boxing skills to it's limits and dominate Foreman via a combination of tactics,power, and intelligent aggressiveness.
What really made Lennox's jab tactics special is that unlike Holmes and Wlad (two fighters with equal or maybe even slightly better jabs) Lewis was able to mix in a huge variety of other punches to it as he box you on the outside.
Combinations, upper cuts, overhands, he had it all and he will effectively dominant a foreman type from a tactical point of view.
One fight that really stands out for me in terms of Lennox adapting to his opponents is Bruno.
I know Bruno is not Foreman, but we really did see this tactic against him. When Lewis was losing the fight because he was not able to dominate Bruno via his jab work alone, he started winning the fight based on his fighting. Upper cuts, overhands, a few power combos and Bruno was done.
We are talking about the BEST VERSIONS of both boxers in a h2h scenario. The best Version of Lewis would have treated Foreman like a virus, there is no way Foreman could have caught LL with something big. Lewis would either tactically dominate the slugging Preacher into a late TKO
or out slug the slugger early.
Lewis Tko 9
Prime Lewis vs Vitali Klitschko
See TKO6 Sticky. (ESB)
I don't want to break down this fight because it's beyond stupid if you can't see the logic.
A Old past prime Lewis who was severely under trained and lacked motivation took Vitali to the deep end. That fight would have ended up a tko7 or 8 if it wasn't stopped.
A Prime fully motivated Lewis would have dominated Vitali. Ironically I don't see a Prime LL knocking out Vitali within 6,
what I do see is Lewis winning 10-2 or a possible late tko.
That upper cut fat boy lewis landed? A Prime Version would have followed up with a vicious combination leading into a massive right hand.. taking Vitali out.
Last edited by FightScorer; 12-01-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Good list and JAB proves he has no biases by adding Wladimir and Vitali.
Two fighters that, to some, he picks on the most.
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