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#31
Old 11-24-2012, 10:46 AM
hugh grant
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He is Pacs krptonite but still couldnt beat him. Floyd is JMMs kryptonite and bloated JMM up, but if JMM was that good he could have pulled something out of the bag but didnt.

Those are JMMs biggest names and kinda failed. So JMMs ATG status is not secure. Sad to say really for JMM at this late of his career to have doubts about JMM when he supposedly proved his worth against Pac.

Some might say JMMs resume might not be quite as strong as someone like Floyds, but JMM has proved he can fight Pac and give Pac troubles which is something floyd cant boast so it all depends on what your looking for.

Last edited by hugh grant; 11-24-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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#32
Old 11-24-2012, 12:00 PM
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a no question hall-of-famer, but not an ATG.
All of his best performances came against Pac, but when he wasn't facing Pacman he was just very good. Getting punked by Mayweather + losing to Chris John (never seen this fight but I heard it could have gone either way which in any event isn't a ringing endorsement for JMM's ATG candidacy) definitely dock him a couple points.
He has won titles in three different weight divisions as well as one LINEAL belts at 135. But a closer examination shows his six best victories were probably against
a) Marco Antonio Barrera (post-Morales)
b) Orlando Salido (before he hit his prime)
c) Joel Casamayor (over the hill)
d) Juan Diaz (probably not very good to begin with)
e) Derrick Gainer (in retrospect does this really seem like a big win?)
f) Rocky Juarez, in his prime, and maybe his best non-Pacquiao performance.

He's in a position now where he can strengthen his ATG credentials because of all the terrific young fighters at or around his current weight class but IMO he hasn't fought anybody of note not named Manny Pacquiao since Michael Katsidis, who's really just been propped up by HBO cause he makes for exciting fights. And given his age, it's doubtful he'll be around long enough to take most of these guys on.

Now you can say JMM had a case of dariusz michalczewski-syndrome cause Morales and Barrera both ducked the urine-drinking fighter while he was in his prime, but while that can be a case to bolster his HOF credentials, is his current resume good enough to put him up there with Pacquiao, Mayweather, RJJ + Hopkins in the discussion of modern ATG fighters? three titles-one lineal, against solid but not stellar opposition, a FOTY, and above all getting a draw as well as getting robbed at least once against a bona fide ATG is HOF certainly, but not ATG. For that he would need to distance himself from Pacquiao and prove that he's not just a Ken Norton to Pacquiao's Ali but a fighter who can forge a substantial legacy separate from good showings against one fighter.

Last edited by teddycanyon; 11-24-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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#33
Old 11-24-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Own3d View Post
If Pacquiao didn't get those lucky decisions JMM would be rated one of the best ever and Pacquiao wouldn't be as highly rated. What a difference a couple of points on the cards make.
If one judge had scored the first round in the first fight correctly, Marquez has no draw to fall back on, just another loss.
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#34
Old 11-24-2012, 12:23 PM
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Yeah he is, and there will be no doubt when he defeats pacquiao next month
People are missing the point that a win over pacquiao is huge, it beats any win in mayweathers record for example
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#35
Old 11-24-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztec Wanker View Post
No.

This guy conned everyone into thinking he's great. Fighting Pacquiao every couple of years with some EZ, tailor-made fights in between does not equal greatness.

Excluding Pac...MAB, Casamayor, Kats, and Diaz are his best official wins. That is not an ATG resume IMO.

Barrera's last hurrah was in '06 when he was going life and death with Rocky Juarez. He didn't do anything relevant after that.

Casamayor previously had received a gift with a bow on top in the Santa Cruz fight. He looked terrible and clearly lost. He also was coming off a yearlong layoff and fighting Corrales 3x, Castillo, Freitas, prime Nate Campbell. His body was DONE.

Diaz, good win, probably JMM's best official win. Diaz was a good fighter but was basically a full time LAW student when they fought. Still a good win.

It pains me to say it but Kats is just a journeyman. He's EZ to hit and comes right at you, tailor-made for JMM. It was a stay busy fight for Pacquiao III.

JMM also has wins over Juarez, Gainer, Peden, and Salido (NOW you can say it's a good win). Mediocre.

This is a good resume, maybe even a HOF, but ATG, LEGEND? GTFO. This con artist owes his entire career and life to one man, Manny Pacquiao. Without him, his legacy is ****. He is not greater than Barrera, Morales, or even Castillo. Not a chance. Those guys fought the best at their best. This guy took EZ fights and followed Pac around like a psycho ex-gf.
Don't agree with all of it but most of it.
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#36
Old 11-24-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by teddycanyon View Post
a no question hall-of-famer, but not an ATG.
All of his best performances came against Pac, but when he wasn't facing Pacman he was just very good. Getting punked by Mayweather + losing to Chris John (never seen this fight but I heard it could have gone either way which in any event isn't a ringing endorsement for JMM's ATG candidacy) definitely dock him a couple points.
He has won titles in three different weight divisions as well as one LINEAL belts at 135. But a closer examination shows his six best victories were probably against
a) Marco Antonio Barrera (post-Morales)
b) Orlando Salido (before he hit his prime)
c) Joel Casamayor (over the hill)
d) Juan Diaz (probably not very good to begin with)
e) Derrick Gainer (in retrospect does this really seem like a big win?)
f) Rocky Juarez, in his prime, and maybe his best non-Pacquiao performance.

He's in a position now where he can strengthen his ATG credentials because of all the terrific young fighters at or around his current weight class but IMO he hasn't fought anybody of note not named Manny Pacquiao since Michael Katsidis, who's really just been propped up by HBO cause he makes for exciting fights. And given his age, it's doubtful he'll be around long enough to take most of these guys on.

Now you can say JMM had a case of dariusz michalczewski-syndrome cause Morales and Barrera both ducked the urine-drinking fighter while he was in his prime, but while that can be a case to bolster his HOF credentials, is his current resume good enough to put him up there with Pacquiao, Mayweather, RJJ + Hopkins in the discussion of modern ATG fighters? three titles-one lineal, against solid but not stellar opposition, a FOTY, and above all getting a draw as well as getting robbed at least once against a bona fide ATG is HOF certainly, but not ATG. For that he would need to distance himself from Pacquiao and prove that he's not just a Ken Norton to Pacquiao's Ali but a fighter who can forge a substantial legacy separate from good showings against one fighter.
Perfectly said

"It's doubtful he'll be around long enough to take most of these guys on"

See here is the thing, I'm really doubting he faces one of them, Brandon Rios, Danny Garcia, Matthysse, Timothy Bradley or maybe Robert Guerrero who's been chasing Marquez for a while now. Not saying Marquez is scared, of course not, but he seems more content with trying to get that victory over Manny (Which he has IMO) than actually trying to cement his legacy. The reason I say that is because he thought about retiring once the decision didn't go his way.
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#37
Old 11-24-2012, 01:40 PM
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JMM would doing himself favours if he fought some more varied opposition and not fight Pac once again. He isnt getting any younger.

Its ridiculous that Pac cant fight FLoyd once, yet JMM can fight Pac 4 times in this day and age. How could you explain or justify that to non boxing fans.
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#38
Old 11-24-2012, 01:46 PM
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JMM will be seen as an underrated fighter, a guy who didn't get the wins over the top guys but was always in the fights with them.

I think his one-sided loss to Mayweather will hurt his standing in history because of how futile he looked, even if there were extenuating circumstances.

He will be known as an A fighter, just short of the A+ elite.
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#39
Old 11-24-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by teddycanyon View Post
a no question hall-of-famer, but not an ATG.
All of his best performances came against Pac, but when he wasn't facing Pacman he was just very good. Getting punked by Mayweather + losing to Chris John (never seen this fight but I heard it could have gone either way which in any event isn't a ringing endorsement for JMM's ATG candidacy) definitely dock him a couple points.
He has won titles in three different weight divisions as well as one LINEAL belts at 135. But a closer examination shows his six best victories were probably against
a) Marco Antonio Barrera (post-Morales)
b) Orlando Salido (before he hit his prime)
c) Joel Casamayor (over the hill)
d) Juan Diaz (probably not very good to begin with)
e) Derrick Gainer (in retrospect does this really seem like a big win?)
f) Rocky Juarez, in his prime, and maybe his best non-Pacquiao performance.

He's in a position now where he can strengthen his ATG credentials because of all the terrific young fighters at or around his current weight class but IMO he hasn't fought anybody of note not named Manny Pacquiao since Michael Katsidis, who's really just been propped up by HBO cause he makes for exciting fights. And given his age, it's doubtful he'll be around long enough to take most of these guys on.

Now you can say JMM had a case of dariusz michalczewski-syndrome cause Morales and Barrera both ducked the urine-drinking fighter while he was in his prime, but while that can be a case to bolster his HOF credentials, is his current resume good enough to put him up there with Pacquiao, Mayweather, RJJ + Hopkins in the discussion of modern ATG fighters? three titles-one lineal, against solid but not stellar opposition, a FOTY, and above all getting a draw as well as getting robbed at least once against a bona fide ATG is HOF certainly, but not ATG. For that he would need to distance himself from Pacquiao and prove that he's not just a Ken Norton to Pacquiao's Ali but a fighter who can forge a substantial legacy separate from good showings against one fighter.
This is BS. He ducked Morales in 05 and once again earlier this year. Also, Barrera wanted the fight when they were both with Forum Boxing. I have links but I have to dig around. Will post them when I'm not too busy.
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#40
Old 11-24-2012, 01:54 PM
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I think his one-sided loss to Mayweather will hurt his standing in history because of how futile he looked, even if there were extenuating circumstances.
I agree with that.

You'd also have to say that for all his resentment towards Pacquiao (in a professional, not personal, sense), it's his fights with Pacquiao that have given him real relevance.

I love Marquez, but if he hadn't fought Pacquiao how many people would even be discussing him in ATG terms?
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