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#21
Old 11-23-2012, 11:40 PM
Pacquiao'd
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#22
Old 11-24-2012, 08:32 AM
Brother Jay
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Originally Posted by Dr Rumack View Post
Hasn't Freddie wanted to sack him for a number of years now?

Manny has been in physical decline for two years now I reckon, looking more and more lethargic in the ring with every fight.

So it depends how you look it, either Ariza is not the man to do this job anymore, or Manny is in irreversible decline and no conditioning coach on earth could reverse it.

I think it might be the latter. He was a truly phenomenal athlete, but he's 33, he's been fighting as a pro since he's been 15, and the decline has to come sooner or later.

The fact that he's got a good chin and can bang means he'll be able to mix it up for a good few years. But I expect him to get outboxed and outpointed and a number of occasions in the years to come, before he hangs them up for good.
Manny isn't in any decline.

Its just that in the past 2 years he's fought guys that he didn't weight drain and weren't coming off huge losses for the first time since 2008.

How is that a decline in any way?

Is it because his opponents aren't as stationary as people have become accustomed to? JMM and Bradley are top fighters who still had the goods and confidence going into the fight with Manny.

It wasn't any decline in Pacquiao as much as having healthy, strong and game fighters in front of him makes Manny look less than stellar.
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#23
Old 11-24-2012, 08:39 AM
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Manny isn't in any decline.

Its just that in the past 2 years he's fought guys that he didn't weight drain and weren't coming off huge losses for the first time since 2008.

How is that a decline in any way?

Is it because his opponents aren't as stationary as people have become accustomed to? JMM and Bradley are top fighters who still had the goods and confidence going into the fight with Manny.

It wasn't any decline in Pacquiao as much as having healthy, strong and game fighters in front of him makes Manny look less than stellar.
Cotto wasn't healthy, strong and game when Manny fought him? Oh, wait, you're right, those extra 2 lbs he had to take off made him a walking tomato can and we should give Manny no credit for pummelling him. Nor should we give Manny credit for dominating Mosley and dropping him too (something both Floyd and Alvarez didn't come close to). Or completely spanking much bigger foes like Clottey (who punished Zab and Corrales, lest we forget) or Margarito. It's pretty clear you ain't gonna give Pac credit no matter what he does.
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#24
Old 11-24-2012, 08:40 AM
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Manny isn't in any decline.

Its just that in the past 2 years he's fought guys that he didn't weight drain and weren't coming off huge losses for the first time since 2008.

How is that a decline in any way?

Is it because his opponents aren't as stationary as people have become accustomed to? JMM and Bradley are top fighters who still had the goods and confidence going into the fight with Manny.

It wasn't any decline in Pacquiao as much as having healthy, strong and game fighters in front of him makes Manny look less than stellar.
His workrate and foot-speed have declined massively. The dynamism is gone. His deterioration is due in any case. His phenomenal athleticism was a large part of what made him great and that has to go eventually. He's done well to stay at the top for this long.
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#25
Old 11-24-2012, 10:18 AM
Brother Jay
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Cotto wasn't healthy, strong and game when Manny fought him? Oh, wait, you're right, those extra 2 lbs he had to take off made him a walking tomato can and we should give Manny no credit for pummelling him. Nor should we give Manny credit for dominating Mosley and dropping him too (something both Floyd and Alvarez didn't come close to). Or completely spanking much bigger foes like Clottey (who punished Zab and Corrales, lest we forget) or Margarito. It's pretty clear you ain't gonna give Pac credit no matter what he does.
I give Pacquiao complete credit for legitimate performances.

Everything Manny did below 140 was DYNAMITE.

Above 140? Not so much.

When one stipulates that his opponent must perform ANY differently than he is used to while winning, he diminishes the legitimacy of the win. Point blank. Period.

I notice that you omitted the win that actually brought Pacquiao to the P4P stage: DLH. Manny stipulated that DLH come in at a weight that DLH hadn't fought at in 7 years. Come on .. this isn't about fanboy sh*t .. this is about boxing legitimacy. Had he let DLH come in wherever he was comfortable like Mayweather did, NO ONE could deny any part of what Manny did.

But Manny didn't. He couldn't.

What Pacquiao did translates to: I wanted to show that I could do what Floyd does, but I know that I could only do it under special circumstances, but with the same big name fighter.

Stop trying to make crap legitimate.

And if that wasn't bad enough, Manny completely avoided any top boxer while they were still winning after fighting DLH. He went on a streak.

Hatton - KO'd by Floyd and had tune ups in between

Cotto - brutalized by Margarito before Pacquiao would face him

Clottey - lost to Cotto in a crap call but was never a top boxer anyway

Margarito - Literally begged for a shot. Pacquiao was not interested until Mosley KO'd him.

Mosley - Another one who begged Pacquiao for a shot. Roach is on record REFUSING to fight Mosley unless it was at 142lbs. Once Mayweather dominated Mosley, 147 instantly became acceptable.

Pacquiao had opportunities to fight nearly all of these men while they were on top. He chose to wait until they lost. This took place from 2008-2011.

Then when he fought guys who were also small and nimble, look at what happened. They weren't slow and working with shattered confidence. JMM came for vendetta, and Bradley came to last but came alive in the second half of the fight.

I've always maintained that Manny Pacquiao is one of the most exciting boxers in recent history. He's pure energy and dynamite. That does not erase however the fact that he has NEVER fought a top 3 WW or jrMW to earn the credit that some give him, and he uses his supposedly undersized stature to get a pass for doing things that others would immediately be ridiculed for.

Real fans acknowledge that War put on a hell of a performance against Dawson, but we also mention that the weight was THE BIGGEST FACTOR in the match and would like to see Ward try it at Dawson's best weight.

See? Does that mean I hate Ward because I state the obvious and demand more from a man who wishes to be seen as among the best if not THEE best?

When Roy Jones went up to from LHW to HW, did he stipulate his opponent cut down to ridiculous catchweights? Why even demand a catchweight if it serves no purpose? You really need to ask yourself that question because you come of as if your feel the extra cut weight was somehow trivial. Are you implying that it was done for fun's sake? You write "2 lbs" as if it was nothing.

Do you know what its like to make weight? The last 2-5lbs are ALWAYS the hardest. So now imagine on top of those last 5lbs, someone says you've got 2 more to go. You CLEARLY have no idea what an impact that has.

If it were so easy to cut 2lbs after having already made weight, no one would NOT make weight for pro fights where they are penalized for it.

Now as far as your comments about Pacquiao and Mosley, Mosley tried to box Pacquiao from the outside and stayed cautious the whole fight. Manny looked terrible in that fight because he didn't even have the rudimentary skill to cut off the ring. If you want to go as far to mention the knockdown, Pacquiao got knocked down as well. You can't have it both ways.

Against Clottey, Pacquiao did next to nothing, but was way more active than Clottey. However, at the end of the fight, Pacquiao's face was battered and bruised .. while Clottey was elated to have just made the biggest pay of his life. Manny could do nothing against Clottey. Manny hit arms all night until desperation took over and he began throwing double bolo punches. Hahaha .. that's the complete spanking you're referring to? Give me a break.

Clottey barely fought back and managed to beat up Manny's face. That's no fault of Manny's, but Manny showed that he lacked the variety to get through Clottey's shell defense and open him up. Clottey stayed just busy enough to not be penalized for inactivity.

Again, I think Manny's fights below 140 were dynamite. He's a ball of fire who has limited skills, but seems to have developed incredible stamina and energy to make up for it.

No one would claim that Pacquiao is half the technician that JMM is, but the way Manny managed to stay competitive in the first two fights was by drawing JMM into exchanging instead of boxing, and then to throw caution to the wind and leap in and land that straight left behind the leaping right jab. Its a two hop process.

And that's exactly what worked against Pacquiao in the 3rd fight against Marquez: As soon as Manny hopped forward, JMM tagged him and moved to the side. Its all Manny knows. That double hop usually puts Manny in position to get all his momentum behind that straight left, and he could barely get into position to use it all night. He came to fight, but he got outboxed.

Now, you can take this post as me being a Manny hater, or you can actually read it, understand that my take differs from yours but I at least back my sh*t up with reasons and facts.

Long read, but there isn't sh*t else to do on this site.
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#26
Old 11-24-2012, 10:34 AM
Brother Jay
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Originally Posted by Dr Rumack View Post
His workrate and foot-speed have declined massively. The dynamism is gone. His deterioration is due in any case. His phenomenal athleticism was a large part of what made him great and that has to go eventually. He's done well to stay at the top for this long.
No one said that in any of his fights BEFORE JMMIII.

No one said that when he fought Clottey.

No one said that when he fought Margarito.

No one said that when he fought Mosley.

They only said it once Marquez looked like he had figured out how to outbox Manny.

Why did Manny's foot speed look different in the Pacquiao/JMM III match?

Because the only real "foot speed" Pacquiao was ever really perceived to have had were the two hops that he does when throwing first the right jab, then the straight left behind it.

Nearly every time Pacquiao tried it in the third match, JMM simply nailed him, moved out to the side, then got back into position to throw more punches.

Its not that Manny couldn't still pull the trigger, its that two-hop move is the only real fast advance maneuver that Manny uses. Once someone found a way to counter it, Manny stopped using it .. and therefore looked a lot slower because he stop darting forward.

Don't take my word for it. Go watch the fight. Watch how Manny starts out using it a lot and then gradually decides not to use it as much as the fight goes on. You'll see Marquez hitting Manny more frequently as Manny tries to dart in, and eventually Manny gets gun-shy because his bread and butter isn't working like it used to.

Check it out for yourself.

No decline in speed. Just a counter approach on Marquez' part.

Manny didn't look that speedy against Mosley either. That's because Mosley laid the blueprint by moving to the sides instead of standing and trading. Mosley simply couldn't counter as well as Marquez at this stage of his career. Nacho saw that, implemented it into JMM's game plan and it paid dividends.
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#27
Old 11-24-2012, 11:01 AM
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Koncz cleans his pool.
Lol.. He also walks the dog.
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#28
Old 11-24-2012, 11:06 AM
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he also sticks those injections in his ass
Lol.. perhaps, but still no concrete evidence. just speculation.
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#29
Old 11-24-2012, 12:43 PM
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Lol.. perhaps, but still no concrete evidence. just speculation.
its hard to have concrete evidence when the guy avoids random blood testing
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#30
Old 11-24-2012, 12:44 PM
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He's performed worse since he got Ariza. Make of that what you will.
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