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View Poll Results: Current Wlad vs the best version of Tyson
Tyson 79 78.22%
Wlad 22 21.78%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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#91
Old 11-17-2012, 07:13 PM
kenso
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Originally Posted by Own3d View Post
Wlad hasn't beat anyone that's close to a prime Tyson. All we can do is analyse both and come up with an opinion. Tyson had everything needed to put Wlad on his back.
As does Wlad. They both have displayed everything needed to put nearly any HW in history on their back. I could see Tyson closing in with supreme head movement and landing something huge early, and I could just as easily see Wlad keeping Tyson at the end of his punches and sinking monster rights. You can make a case for either of these guys.

The arguments people make for or against fighters are almost always the same.

"Wlad has never fought someone as good as Tyson"
Well the exact same thing can be said about Tyson (and nearly every other ATG HW)

"Wlad lost to bums, and Tyson could beat those bums easily"
How many ATG heavyweights can you name that lost to bums at some point in their career? Regardless if it was pre-prime or post-prime. I bet you can name QUITE a few if you know your boxing history. Let's be real though, does anyone honestly think that the Wlad of today would lose to Ross Purrity? Does anyone think that prime Tyson would have lose to McBride? These arguments are useless.

"Tyson has the tools to beat Wlad"
Again, the exact same case can be made the opposite way.


I'm all for fantasy analysis, it is good discussion. I just think that people ignore the shortcomings of the fighter they would want to win, or that they ignore the advantages that the other opponent represents. People are making cases for why one fighter loses to another, when in fact, the same case applies to not only both fighters... but most fighters in the history of the sport.
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#92
Old 11-17-2012, 07:23 PM
Jel
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Originally Posted by kenso View Post
As does Wlad. They both have displayed everything needed to put nearly any HW in history on their back. I could see Tyson closing in with supreme head movement and landing something huge early, and I could just as easily see Wlad keeping Tyson at the end of his punches and sinking monster rights. You can make a case for either of these guys.

The arguments people make for or against fighters are almost always the same.

"Wlad has never fought someone as good as Tyson"
Well the exact same thing can be said about Tyson (and nearly every other ATG HW)

"Wlad lost to bums, and Tyson could beat those bums easily"
How many ATG heavyweights can you name that lost to bums at some point in their career? Regardless if it was pre-prime or post-prime. I bet you can name QUITE a few if you know your boxing history. Let's be real though, does anyone honestly think that the Wlad of today would lose to Ross Purrity? Does anyone think that prime Tyson would have lose to McBride? These arguments are useless.

"Tyson has the tools to beat Wlad"
Again, the exact same case can be made the opposite way.


I'm all for fantasy analysis, it is good discussion. I just think that people ignore the shortcomings of the fighter they would want to win, or that they ignore the advantages that the other opponent represents. People are making cases for why one fighter loses to another, when in fact, the same case applies to not only both fighters... but most fighters in the history of the sport.
That was a very long and well thought out post.

I do think Wlad got some weakness such as inside game, chin, and his lax at times in regards to holding his hands too low.
it is extremely naive to insist Wlad have an inside game. He don't. Like I mentioned on various sites, Lewis clinches and holds but also goes to the body and unleashes a barrage of uppercuts, short hooks, combinations. Wlad just holds you and grips you like a vice.

It is absolutely essential to have an inside game against a fellow ATG super heavy like Lewis. Hence putting Wlad at a disadvantage.



As for Tyson ,it's pretty obvious that the formula to beat a Prime Tyson consists of.

Size, heart,boxing skills,jab,inside fighting,movement,chin.
Wlad have a lot of those, but he lacks the inside fighting and chin. Please let's not get into how 'Wlad's chin is actually good' No, it's not. You can't go down 12 times in your career as a HW and still say you have a good chin.
At best Wlad have an average chin. At best.
He nearly freaked out at the end of that round against Wach and it was the brilliance of Banks at the corner which got Wlad right back into it.


This is why although h2h is still speculative it's actually quite easy to pin point certain traits of certain fighters to form a pretty good conclusion.




I still think it's a tough fight to call and I can see Wlad winning a UD via his boxing skills and range. But, it is also very very easy to see Tyson catching Wlad anywhere from Round 1 to 6 via a combination and Wlad regresses further and further from that point on until the tko.

Last edited by Jel; 11-17-2012 at 07:25 PM.
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#93
Old 11-17-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kenso View Post
As does Wlad. They both have displayed everything needed to put nearly any HW in history on their back. I could see Tyson closing in with supreme head movement and landing something huge early, and I could just as easily see Wlad keeping Tyson at the end of his punches and sinking monster rights. You can make a case for either of these guys.

The arguments people make for or against fighters are almost always the same.

"Wlad has never fought someone as good as Tyson"
Well the exact same thing can be said about Tyson (and nearly every other ATG HW)

"Wlad lost to bums, and Tyson could beat those bums easily"
How many ATG heavyweights can you name that lost to bums at some point in their career? Regardless if it was pre-prime or post-prime. I bet you can name QUITE a few if you know your boxing history. Let's be real though, does anyone honestly think that the Wlad of today would lose to Ross Purrity? Does anyone think that prime Tyson would have lose to McBride? These arguments are useless.

"Tyson has the tools to beat Wlad"
Again, the exact same case can be made the opposite way.


I'm all for fantasy analysis, it is good discussion. I just think that people ignore the shortcomings of the fighter they would want to win, or that they ignore the advantages that the other opponent represents. People are making cases for why one fighter loses to another, when in fact, the same case applies to not only both fighters... but most fighters in the history of the sport.
To say Tyson hasn't fought anyone as good if not better than Vlad is not all the way accurate. Lennox and Holyfield, yes that version of Lennox whom made Vlad's big brother face look like Edward Scissor Hands got a hold of him, and Holyfield was still peaking. Those 2 fighters are better than Vlad in my opinion. Now whom has Vlad fought close to an undefeated Tyson? let's be honest no one on Vlad's resume would prepare him for Tyson. But on Tyson's resume he has fought every style fighter possible, and just as big as punchers as Vlad some hit harder. Let's not bring up the Klit's KO% those numbers doesn't tell the story! As we know Vital has the higher % than Vlad and we know Vlad is more of the heavy handed brother. Quick point, in this fantasy fight Vlad's holding would not be present, Tyson Faced a guy in Bruno who's specialty was to grab and hold. Now Vlad is by far the better fighter but, holding is equal. Bruno was 6'4 and a rock solid 235-240, and Bruno was strong, not punching power strong, but physically gifted. Also we have to take in consideration, that if Vlad did go to hit and grab, the fight might end in a DQ win for Vlad if the ref doesn't take control. Because i'll tell you Tyson wouldn't wait for the ref, and he'll take matters into his own hands. follow the holyfield fight with all the headbutting and holding Holy was doing, see what happen

Last edited by Rakim Tha God; 11-17-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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#94
Old 11-17-2012, 07:43 PM
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If you take Tyson's absolute prime and add to that he gives his best performance then I can't see any HW in history apart of Ali to beat him.

Now another assumption that needs to be made is that Tyson can box at least 5-6 rounds in tempo he used to box those 1-2 rounds before he KOed all those guys.

To compare these big guys (Wlad, Lennox, Vitali, Foreman) I think neither of them would have a right answer.

Against Foreman it would be power (foreman) against power and speed (tyson) - so tyson likely takes it. He would be just too fast for foreman.

Against Wlad it would be power and speed (Wlad) against power and superior speed (tyson). Wlad would have some chance but he wouldn't be able to keep Tyson away for more than 5-6 rounds. One big punch and it's over.

Against Lennox, in my opinion, it would be even worse as Lennox was slower than Wlad and his defense was weaker as well. Doesn't matter he has better chin or better inside game than Wlad, his chin (not top class) wouldn't be able to survive one of Tyson's big punches. More likely Tyson finds Lennox's chin first and that's the end.

Against Vitali - well this is tricky one. Superior speed of Tyson would make it hell for Vitali. But Vitali is the biggest of these guys, he has the best chin among them too and he has that ability to lean back to avoid the punches. I like Vitali's chances the best among these guys but still I think Tyson takes it due to Vitali's injury, severe cuts or even TKO/KO.

Only man who has everything to match Tyson's skill-set is Ali. He had the chin, the speed, the power. Ali would be able either to outbox Tyson and avoid being TKOed or to even takes Tyson in the latter rounds.

Now all of this is if we give Tyson every possible advantage he could have. Realistically it never happens.
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#95
Old 11-17-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
If you take Tyson's absolute prime and add to that he gives his best performance then I can't see any HW in history apart of Ali to beat him.

Now another assumption that needs to be made is that Tyson can box at least 5-6 rounds in tempo he used to box those 1-2 rounds before he KOed all those guys.

To compare these big guys (Wlad, Lennox, Vitali, Foreman) I think neither of them would have a right answer.

Against Foreman it would be power (foreman) against power and speed (tyson) - so tyson likely takes it. He would be just too fast for foreman.

Against Wlad it would be power and speed (Wlad) against power and superior speed (tyson). Wlad would have some chance but he wouldn't be able to keep Tyson away for more than 5-6 rounds. One big punch and it's over.

Against Lennox, in my opinion, it would be even worse as Lennox was slower than Wlad and his defense was weaker as well. Doesn't matter he has better chin or better inside game than Wlad, his chin (not top class) wouldn't be able to survive one of Tyson's big punches. More likely Tyson finds Lennox's chin first and that's the end.

Against Vitali - well this is tricky one. Superior speed of Tyson would make it hell for Vitali. But Vitali is the biggest of these guys, he has the best chin among them too and he has that ability to lean back to avoid the punches. I like Vitali's chances the best among these guys but still I think Tyson takes it due to Vitali's injury, severe cuts or even TKO/KO.

Only man who has everything to match Tyson's skill-set is Ali. He had the chin, the speed, the power. Ali would be able either to outbox Tyson and avoid being TKOed or to even takes Tyson in the latter rounds.

Now all of this is if we give Tyson every possible advantage he could have. Realistically it never happens.
Good reads. 64-67 Ali was pretty damn tricky. Wlad and Lennox will always have issues with Tyson due to their chins.
Now like I said, NEITHER guy got glass chins. Both got average slightly above average chins. It is what it is. But to be able to beat Tyson you will need a good chin (imo).

That being said, Wlad and Lennox are such great boxers as well as punchers-movers. They also have multiple versions. What I mean is, Lennox and Wlad actually fought totally different to their older versions.

The Lewis of Ruddock and the Wlad of Mercer would have attempted to bomb Tyson out, the Lewis of Tua and the Wlad of Haye would have boxed Tyson.

I do think the Lewis that fought Tua and the Wlad that fought Haye would have a good chance to beat Tyson, but I still see them getting caught.

For what really matters though. Both Lennox and Wlad are probably ranked higher on the ATG Lists.
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#96
Old 11-17-2012, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TysonBomb View Post
Tyson KO 1

No contest

Tyson would KO this f@ggot with a grazing jab even if he had his guard up

The greatest heavyweight of all time against a glass jawed fraud fighting in the weakest era?

Anyone who picked Wlad should be ashamed and get a neurological exam done ... even a drug addict wouldn't pick Wlad over Iron Mike Tyson
You should take your own advice there. Greatest HW ... sweet jesus.
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#97
Old 11-17-2012, 07:58 PM
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Good reads. 64-67 Ali was pretty damn tricky. Wlad and Lennox will always have issues with Tyson due to their chins.
Now like I said, NEITHER guy got glass chins. Both got average slightly above average chins. It is what it is. But to be able to beat Tyson you will need a good chin (imo).

That being said, Wlad and Lennox are such great boxers as well as punchers-movers. They also have multiple versions. What I mean is, Lennox and Wlad actually fought totally different to their older versions.

The Lewis of Ruddock and the Wlad of Mercer would have attempted to bomb Tyson out, the Lewis of Tua and the Wlad of Haye would have boxed Tyson.

I do think the Lewis that fought Tua and the Wlad that fought Haye would have a good chance to beat Tyson, but I still see them getting caught.

For what really matters though. Both Lennox and Wlad are probably ranked higher on the ATG Lists.
Of course..
Realistically I would probably favor both Lennox and Wlad to beat Tyson, (prime for prime) - (UD in both cases), but this is if we make Tyson to be the best possible - to assume everything in his favor.

Tyson is a phenomenon - no doubt about that. But when the height difference is 5,6,7 or even 8 inches it really needs to be taken into account. And we are not talking he would face B-level fighters but other ATGs...
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#98
Old 11-17-2012, 08:01 PM
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Tyson and Wlad are my two all time favorite boxers so...................after 12 rounds of trading knock downs they get a draw
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#99
Old 11-17-2012, 08:29 PM
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To say Tyson hasn't fought anyone as good if not better than Vlad is not all the way accurate. Lennox and Holyfield, yes that version of Lennox whom made Vlad's big brother face look like Edward Scissor Hands got a hold of him, and Holyfield was still peaking. Those 2 fighters are better than Vlad in my opinion. Now whom has Vlad fought close to an undefeated Tyson? let's be honest no one on Vlad's resume would prepare him for Tyson.

Aside from facing an ATG, there is no way to "prepare" for an ATG. This is my point. As far as Tyson facing Lennox and Holyfield? If Tyson had beaten a prime Lennox and a prime Holyfield, you may have some possibility of a credible point. However, Lennox (who's style, and size, isn't infinitely different from Klitschko's) KO'd Tyson, as did Holyfield. I don't think getting KO'd by Lennox and Holyfield in any way proved that Tyson would be ready for Klitschko, nor would that experience have helped him in any significant way.

On the flip side, Lennox beating a faded Tyson would not have offered any further preparation for Klitschko.

To further illustrate my point, if Klitschko beat the current version of Holyfield, it would not further prepare him for a fight with Tyson, despite the fact that Holyfield is an ATG and once beat Tyson.

The only way these types of arguments are REMOTELY valid are when two ATG HWs fought each other in their primes. How many times has this happened in history? Once? None? I don't care what you say, Tyson never faced and defeated a fighter as good as the current version of Klitschko. Neither has Lennox, or Holyfield. Hence, this whole notion of "experience" is moot. In fact, if you want to make another useless case for experience, Klitschko has actually had more professional fights than all three of those guys.
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#100
Old 11-17-2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kenso View Post
Aside from facing an ATG, there is no way to "prepare" for an ATG. This is my point. As far as Tyson facing Lennox and Holyfield? If Tyson had beaten a prime Lennox and a prime Holyfield, you may have some possibility of a credible point. However, Lennox (who's style, and size, isn't infinitely different from Klitschko's) KO'd Tyson, as did Holyfield. I don't think getting KO'd by Lennox and Holyfield in any way proved that Tyson would be ready for Klitschko, nor would that experience have helped him in any significant way.

On the flip side, Lennox beating a faded Tyson would not have offered any further preparation for Klitschko.

To further illustrate my point, if Klitschko beat the current version of Holyfield, it would not further prepare him for a fight with Tyson, despite the fact that Holyfield is an ATG and once beat Tyson.

The only way these types of arguments are REMOTELY valid are when two ATG HWs fought each other in their primes. How many times has this happened in history? Once? None? I don't care what you say, Tyson never faced and defeated a fighter as good as the current version of Klitschko. Neither has Lennox, or Holyfield. Hence, this whole notion of "experience" is moot. In fact, if you want to make another useless case for experience, Klitschko has actually had more professional fights than all three of those guys.
Yes, but what you can do is pull out certain fighters guys like Lennox,Wlad,Vitlai,Tyson fought during their physical/boxing primes that were like inferior versions of each other.

Once again. Tony Tucker is no Wladimir Klitscho. But he is a 6'6 super heavy with good boxing skills, a good jab, and loves to clinch/hold impose his size on smaller guys.

Henry Aniwanke is no Wladimir Klithsco, but once again he is a 6'7 super heavy who loves to work behind his jab and impose his size on smaller guys.

The issue with Tyson is that there are no fighters that resembles his style today.

Tyson is superior to Frazier in a h2h sense, but you really can make some comparisons and take from it what you will in a Young Foreman vs Tyson h2h theory.
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