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View Poll Results: If you never fought the 2nd best fighter of your era,does it devalue your legacy?
Yes it does. You don't really know who is #1 21 100.00%
No it does not. 0 0%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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#21
Old 11-16-2012, 02:46 PM
IMDAZED
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Originally Posted by Jel View Post
But Vitali was #2 for pretty much Wlad's entire reign. Wait, so the ONLY reason they are excused is because they are brothers right?

Let's say Prime Lennox was in this era instead of the 90's to early 2000's. Say Prime Lennox is #1 and Wlad is #2 and they never fought. That will not be excusable right? Because you won't have known who really was the #1.
No, he hasn't been #2 for Wlad's entire reign. He was missing for nearly half of it. And as Wlad continues to reign (and Vitali retires), he'll be missing for its remainder. I'm quite clear who the #1 is - he hasn't done anything to lose it.
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#22
Old 11-16-2012, 02:51 PM
Jel
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Originally Posted by IMDAZED View Post
No, he hasn't been #2 for Wlad's entire reign. He was missing for nearly half of it. And as Wlad continues to reign (and Vitali retires), he'll be missing for its remainder. I'm quite clear who the #1 is - he hasn't done anything to lose it.
Ok Fair enough.

So who is the #2 best HW of K2's era than? From the time Lennox retired to now?

Or is there a 'number of 2nd bests' which the great Wlad destroyed?
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#23
Old 11-16-2012, 02:52 PM
IMDAZED
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Originally Posted by Jel View Post
Ok Fair enough.

So who is the #2 best HW of K2's era than? From the time Lennox retired to now?

Or is there a 'number of 2nd bests' which the great Wlad destroyed?
There have been a number of 2nd bests period. And not all of them were beaten by Wlad. Just like any other HW era.
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#24
Old 11-16-2012, 04:42 PM
damuttz112
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Originally Posted by Jel View Post
But Vitali was #2 for pretty much Wlad's entire reign. Wait, so the ONLY reason they are excused is because they are brothers right?

Let's say Prime Lennox was in this era instead of the 90's to early 2000's. Say Prime Lennox is #1 and Wlad is #2 and they never fought. That will not be excusable right? Because you won't have known who really was the #1.
Isn't that how you become lineal champion? By defeating the #2 ranked?
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#25
Old 11-18-2012, 04:45 AM
Jel
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Originally Posted by damuttz112 View Post
Isn't that how you become lineal champion? By defeating the #2 ranked?
Wlad was never the lineal champ.

You become the lineal champ by beating the man who beat the man.

Klittards and Fat Dan will like you to falsely believe it was restored. But it never was.

1956-1959 - Floyd Paterson
1959-1960 - Ingemar Johansson
1960-1962 - Floyd Paterson
1962-1964 - Sonny Liston
1964-1971 - Muhammad Ali
1971-1973 - Joe Frazier
1973-1974 - George Foreman
1974-1978 - Muhammad Ali
1978-1978 - Leon Spinks
1978-1978 - Muhammad Ali



1978-1985 - Larry Holmes
1985-1988 - Michael Spinks
1988-1990 - Mike Tyson
1990-1990 - Buster Douglas
1990-1992 - Evander Holyfield
1992-1993 - Riddick Bowe
1993-1994 - Evander Holyfield
1994-1994 - Michael Moorer
1994-1997 - George Foreman
1997-1998 - Shannon Briggs
1998-2001 - Lennox Lewis
2001-2001 - Hasim Rahman
2001-2003 - Lennox Lewis




Vitali retired and supposedly broke the linage.
But that would only work if he stayed retired or if he came back shot and irrelevant.

Vitali came back and was clearly the 'other top heavyweight' of his era.
This messes up the Linage because you actually no longer know who was the man of his era.

Not to mention, Vitali beat the #2 Sanders. Wladimir lost to Sanders. Wladimir never beat Sanders. Which messes up the linage in itself as well with no direct correlations.


Linage is very important. Because boxing historians will look back and say 'Wladimir was never the Lineal champ, he was never the true 'man' of the division'.
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#26
Old 11-24-2012, 04:56 AM
valero
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Originally Posted by Jel View Post
If Ike had not gone to prison, this would have been an amazing fight in the early and mid 2000's. Ike had enormous potential and the kind of pressure he brings would have troubled a young Wlad.
There's so many eerie things about Ike's last fight. Not just the fact that no one had done that kind of damage to Byrd before.. also the commentary where one of the guys asks Roy if he'd be like Byrd at HW, and Roy says "I don't even think I can gain that much weight," and the other guy says "I don't think so either."

5 years later, that's exactly what Roy did.. he put on too much weight and was never the same again.. then got knocked the **** out just like Byrd did against Ibeabuchi.

As for Ibeabuchi, I've never seen a HW throw so many HARD punches without slowing.. a fight against Lennox or a Klitschko would've been incredible to see.

Last edited by valero; 11-24-2012 at 05:00 AM.
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#27
Old 11-24-2012, 05:02 AM
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seems like a wlad bashing thread. fact is wlad is the best in the world, he's the champ and vitali has a paper title
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#28
Old 11-24-2012, 06:42 AM
Joeyzagz
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The problem with not fighting the 2nd best fighter of your era is that it really puts a big question mark over a variety of criteria in judging your ATG standings.
Your resume, your record, and of course your title defenses.

I will highlight 3 cases. One of which is very very unique(klitschkos)

1- K2
First off I like to say that it is 100% understandable why they DO NOT fight. They are brothers and it is impossible. They just have the bad luck (speaking from a boxing sense) to be related. The issue is this:

If Vitali was not related to Wladimir, they would have fought 2-3 times already. Vitali would have at least been a 50-50 if not outright favorite against Wladimir. This really does distorts his title defense numbers and his reign of dominance. He shared his reign with a fighter who is his equal or nearly so. He shared his dominance with a fighter who have a very real chance of beating him and ending his title defense streak. This is troubling because there are a number of ATG'S who would have had better reigns, better records and better defenses than they had, if they never fought the clear #1 challenger to their throne.

Ive been waiting 6 years for someone ELSE to independently come up with this conclusion and you laid it out brilliantly. Wlad's reign is tainted because he never had to face the bestin the world:

Lennox 1997-2004
Vitali: 2004-2012

Wlad got his "Lineal title" by defeating the #3 contender in Chagaev. A new Lineage can only be reestablished when #1 faces #2.
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#29
Old 11-24-2012, 08:43 AM
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they promised their mother they would never fight each other
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#30
Old 11-24-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by valero View Post
These fights could've changed HW boxing history:

Lennox Lewis vs. Wladimir Klitschko
Ike Ibeabuchi vs. Vitali/ Wlad Klitschko
Riddick Bowe vs. Vitali/ Wlad Klitschko
you not see that fight? it was on oceans eleven! haha
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