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#101
Old 11-10-2012, 09:36 AM
Virgil Caine
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Originally Posted by Nodogoshi View Post
Not at all. After the first bomb was dropped, the end of the war was imminent. Russia had to move immediately. It was a land grab, nothing else. Shows that they were waiting in the wings.

Do you not think that the military strategists were aware of these realities on the ground? A US invasion from the South would have absolutely been accompanied by a Russian invasion from the North, just like in Korea and Germany. Japan would've been a tough nut to crack, none the least because it is an island nation. That is also a factor. But the impending Russian invasion, and post-war partitioning of Japan between the US and Russia was also a factor.

To note, I am seeking to enhance clarity, not provide a 'moral' judgement. But the facts need to be put out there, and these were the facts on the ground. A divided Japan may have been a worse result.

I was in Hiroshima for the memorial last August, and I had a Hiroshima bus driver tell me that dropping the bomb was the right thing to do. He wasn't an historical scholar, and approached it more so from the angle that he believed it in fact saved lives. I personally don't know, although I do think that it unleashed some major political consequences, which also have to be taken into account, and which essentially informed the politics of the Cold War. To me, it is a complex issue and I don't have an answer for it.
I will also say that anyone who discusses this topic seriously (I mean scholars, not people just talking about it like in this thread) should visit the museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in my opinion.

I err toward it was wrong. But I also know that I am not in a position to judge. And furthermore I understand political realism.

One question I continuously harbor though is what if FDR had been president still, rather than having just kicked the bucket? Not saying FDR was a softy. But he was the guy that I would've wanted to be in the decision seat, rather than his newly anointed VP. Nothing to harp over, and history is what it is. Just something I consider an interesting historical curiosity.
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#102
Old 11-10-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by !! Anorak View Post
I've always thought it's one of the great atrocities of human history, that. It seems so inhumane somehow, just indiscriminately killing over 200,000 civilians, including children.

There's a sense of vague humanity in a Jap flying a plane and starting up ****, up close. But for a plane to fly way overhead and drop **** like that is wicked IMO.

Sure, Pearl Habo(u)r wasn't a nice thing, but this was taking it to a whole new level. It's like if someone came up to you and said they'd met your girlfriend and gave her a peck on the cheek to be friendly, and it made you jealous. So you turned round and said "that's nothing. I got your girlfriend, cut her arms and legs off and kept her in a box for three months. While in there I ****ed her in ten holes... her vag, her rear pie hole, her gob, each severed limb, her nose and her ears.
The nuclear bombing\human testing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. It was a human atrocity .... One that will never be equaled. They say that there are rules in war, but the US violated them all in spades.

Everyone should be forever sympathetic to the Japanese, because they were used as human guinea pigs, under the guise of fighting a war. It was an inhumane act and judging from history since, one of many committed by the USA.
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#103
Old 11-10-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
The nuclear bombing\human testing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. It was a human atrocity .... One that will never be equaled. They say that there are rules in war, but the US violated them all in spades.

Everyone should be forever sympathetic to the Japanese, because they were used as human guinea pigs, under the guise of fighting a war. It was an inhumane act and judging from history since, one of many committed by the USA.
Great post, and I agree completely. I can also see the political realism aspects. But that sort of augments the criminal nature in terms of international war crimes. If there were such a thing that is. I think that on this day, it is clear that their aren't. International law is just a sham.
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#104
Old 11-10-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nodogoshi View Post
Great post, and I agree completely. I can also see the political realism aspects. But that sort of augments the criminal nature in terms of international war crimes. If there were such a thing that is. I think that on this day, it is clear that their aren't. International law is just a sham.
To note, there is an element of political realism to every atrocity ever committed, included the absolutely most egregious in history. The atomic bombings are probably up there on the list.
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#105
Old 11-10-2012, 10:31 AM
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There may have been a better way to do it, like drop the bomb on an island with little to not people at all.

But had we not dropped the bombs, we would have been forced to invade Japan to end the war. Estimates at the time said close to 1 million US troops could have been killed invading Japan. Plus, we dropped the first bomb and killed thousands of people, but they still didn't surrender.........dumb move on their part to be perfectly honest.

But we should have dropped the bomb on an island with little to no people first, and then had they not surrendered, it's fair game then.

But you have to think what the President was thinking at the time. We could invade Japan and lose hundreds of thousands, close a 1 million, US troops. Or we could drop the bomb on Japan and end the war now.

So they can have bad feelings towards the US, but their own dumb ass government didn't surrender after the first bomb. That wasn't our fault. Do you think the US government is really going to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of US troops, in a war that already cost thousands of US lives, when we could have dropped a bomb on them and ended the war??? What would you have done in the Presidents position??? Invaded Japan, taken more than a few years to win and end the war, and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of the US lives. F**k that...

You mess with the bull, you get the horns.
they should have done this to osama bin laden right? but they just couldn't. instead they attack iraq. how many us troops died in that war? yep! couldn't bomb that place because we all know they are after that oil and us gov is part of all this crap
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#106
Old 11-10-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nodogoshi View Post
To note, there is an element of political realism to every atrocity ever committed, included the absolutely most egregious in history. The atomic bombings are probably up there on the list.
Here's a saying that holds true on one side of the coin, but also damns on the other side. "With knowledge, one can justify every act committed"

We have witnessed and read all the political justification's that can be offered in defense of committing such an egregious inhumane act ... Still none of the offerings excuse the reality that it lowered the status of human beings to the level of beasts.
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#107
Old 11-10-2012, 11:20 AM
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#108
Old 11-10-2012, 11:20 AM
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So if some crazy guy runs up on you and cold cocks you but you end up giving him a savage beating...you're supposed to feel bad about kicking the dude who suckerpunched you's ass? Hell no.
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#109
Old 11-10-2012, 11:21 AM
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not bad for chubby, nuke dropping yanks.




you seen barefoot gen?
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#110
Old 11-10-2012, 11:21 AM
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If he was maimed, blinded, etc., then it would be a human reaction to feel guilty and empathy, regardless of the cause.
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