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#101
Old 12-05-2012, 02:28 PM
Dr Rumack
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Originally Posted by BoxingGenius27 View Post
I hear what you're saying about boxing being a business, but even from a business standpoint, Canelo's last 6 opponents or so haven't even made business sense.

In other words, let's play devil's advocate. Even from a business standpoint, none of Canelo's opponents haven't made anymore sense than what can be provided at 154.
They do, they help to build up Brand Canelo. It's worked too.

Not saying I approve of it but I can see why they're doing it. The guy hasn't beaten an elite opponent yet and he's still a superstar.
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#102
Old 12-05-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Rumack View Post
They do, they help to build up Brand Canelo. It's worked too.

Not saying I approve of it but I can see why they're doing it. The guy hasn't beaten an elite opponent yet and he's still a superstar.
Great so since he's a superstar and can just about fight anyone and pull in the income then what's the big deal of fighting a Lara, Molina, Vanes, Trout, ect?

Only reason I foresee is an issue with him possibly "losing" and no real issue with it being all about the money; because like you said, he's a superstar afterall.
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#103
Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kiaba360 View Post
Every fighter wants a nice pay-day, but what has Canelo accomplished to warrant a fight with Mayweather? It's not like he cleaned out the division (or even attempted to), he doesn't even have one note-worthy LMW on his resume after 10 fights at the weight-class. All I hear is, "well he tried to make fights with P.Will and Kirkland..." as if it's the equivalent to actually fighting them.
What did Ortiz do to get a Mayweather fight? When do most fighters "deserve" to get certain fights?

Again, it's about making money and I still am shocked as to how naive some of you guys are about the business of boxing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Rumack View Post
They do, they help to build up Brand Canelo. It's worked too.

Not saying I approve of it but I can see why they're doing it. The guy hasn't beaten an elite opponent yet and he's still a superstar.
I don't think anyone who really knows boxing thinks that Canelo is elite. I think he's definitely a contender and even though he has a belt, we are still waiting to see him vs the best and we will early next year.
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#104
Old 12-05-2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kiaba360 View Post
Every fighter wants a nice pay-day, but what has Canelo accomplished to warrant a fight with Mayweather? It's not like he cleaned out the division (or even attempted to), he doesn't even have one note-worthy LMW on his resume after 10 fights at the weight-class. All I hear is, "well he tried to make fights with P.Will and Kirkland..." as if it's the equivalent to actually fighting them.
Not only that, but Williams and Kirkland aren't/never were the only 154 lber's.

He still had options with Lara, Vanes, Trout, ect after the other fights fell through.
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#105
Old 12-05-2012, 02:35 PM
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Not really his fault. Was gonna fight Kirkland, Kirk said no. Then Williams and he got injured.

Now Lara and Vanes are tied up in their rematch so Trout/Mayweather are the best options right now. I'm sensing it's going to be Mayweather on Cinco. I feel it.
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#106
Old 12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cuauhtémoc1520 View Post
Those are two different things you are talking about now. There's a difference between managing a fighter properly and avoiding or ducking opponents. Whether you like this excuse or not, Canelo was too young at 20 yrs old to be thrown in there with the best of the division.

We talk all the time at how guys like Fernando Vargas was thrown in too early vs Trinidad and it ruined his career. They don't want to do that with Canelo. Now you make some good points in that he should now be fighting the best, I agree. Let's not forget he was scheduled to fight Victor Ortiz (a fighter Mayweather fought) Kirkland, Paul Williams and Cotto. All of those fell through because of losses or injury so I don't know how anyone can accuse Canelo of ducking anyone.

He is at the point now where he is looking for the big payday, as a fighter you might get one in your lifetime if you are lucky. It's just like an NFL player going to another team for a big contract, your 1 injury away from not getting that money so you need to be real careful and make sure you get it while you can.

Again, I see your point but with all due respect, being in the boxing biz for over a decade, I have seen an underside to the sport that isn't pretty but it's the way it is for a reason. I think Canelo was going to make some big fights this year but injury and losses have changed that.
I understand what you're saying, but what's the difference between managing a fighter properly and ducking? In both examples, they're still avoiding the main fights in the division.

Secondly, even when Canelo was 20, he was still calling out Mayweather (someone much smaller than him I might add).

Again, how can you be ready for Mayweather at 20 years old, but not ready for Lara, Trout, Vanes, Kirkland (after he beat Angulo), or Molina?

If it's about the money, then is he doing fighting Lopez and Cintron (mexican/puerto rican) when he could be fighting for the same amount of money against let's say Molina or Rosado?

I guarantee you for every reason you have for this kid's career progressing like it has, I can provide 3 or 4 reasons why things should be going differently.
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#107
Old 12-05-2012, 02:45 PM
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Not really his fault. Was gonna fight Kirkland, Kirk said no. Then Williams and he got injured.

Now Lara and Vanes are tied up in their rematch so Trout/Mayweather are the best options right now. I'm sensing it's going to be Mayweather on Cinco. I feel it.
Not true. After Kirkland beat Angulo, Kirkland was the mandatory. This is when the fight should've happened; instead Canelo fought Mosley who did ABSOLUTELY nothing at 154 to deserve a title shot.

Finally when GB tried to make the Kirkland fight after the Molina fight, Kirkland was already injured and stated he couldn't make the date given to him by GB.

When GB tried to make the Williams fight and Williams got injured, Molina, Lara, Vanes and Trout were all waiting for their opportunity. Instead some JWW who lost to Jessie Vargas got the call over proven JMW's because he beat a WW who was also coming off a loss.

But going off that same methodology, Trout should now get the fight since he beat Cotto. we'll see.
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#108
Old 12-05-2012, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BoxingGenius27 View Post
Not true. After Kirkland beat Angulo, Kirkland was the mandatory. This is when the fight should've happened; instead Canelo fought Mosley who did ABSOLUTELY nothing at 154 to deserve a title shot.

Finally when GB tried to make the Kirkland fight after the Molina fight, Kirkland was already injured and stated he couldn't make the date given to him by GB.

When GB tried to make the Williams fight and Williams got injured, Molina, Lara, Vanes and Trout were all waiting for their opportunity. Instead some JWW who lost to Jessie Vargas got the call over proven JMW's because he beat a WW who was also coming off a loss.

But going off that same methodology, Trout should now get the fight since he beat Cotto. we'll see.
Trout has a better chance of fighting Ali or President Obama then he does Canelo.
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#109
Old 12-05-2012, 02:58 PM
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so alvarez is ready to cash in for the big leagues but is too young for the minor leagues? please. plenty of champions in the past and current guys like mayweather had stiffer competition in their early 20s. this chump already has a belt and is a superstar for whatever reason. there's no excuse.
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#110
Old 12-05-2012, 02:59 PM
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I understand what you're saying, but what's the difference between managing a fighter properly and ducking? In both examples, they're still avoiding the main fights in the division.

Secondly, even when Canelo was 20, he was still calling out Mayweather (someone much smaller than him I might add).

Again, how can you be ready for Mayweather at 20 years old, but not ready for Lara, Trout, Vanes, Kirkland (after he beat Angulo), or Molina?

If it's about the money, then is he doing fighting Lopez and Cintron (mexican/puerto rican) when he could be fighting for the same amount of money against let's say Molina or Rosado?

I guarantee you for every reason you have for this kid's career progressing like it has, I can provide 3 or 4 reasons why things should be going differently.
Couple of points:

#1 - I don't remember Canelo at age 19 or 20 calling out Mayweather. This whole Mayweather thing started after his Mosley win.

#2 - Lara, Trout, Molina and Vanes are NOT big money fights. Those are guys that have had trouble getting fights because of the way they fight, it's not fan friendly. I know that sucks to say but it's the truth. Do you really think that Canelo's people are looking at any of those guys thinking they are worried they can't beat them? I would think Ortiz and Kirkland are much bigger risks because of their power. Now you can argue Lara because of his skill, but again, not a guy that is fun to watch and therefore no money in it.

HBO and Showtime have to put up millions of dollars to make these cards. Then the promoters have to as well and then they have to make sure they sellout the venue and make money back. So finding a viable opponent is crucial in the decision making and has nothing to do with "ducking". Like I said, those names you mentioned aren't big money fights, sorry but they aren't.

#3 - When he fought guys like Lopez and Cintron there were good reasons for it. Lopez was because he earned the right to fight Canelo after his upset win over Ortiz and then Cintron was earlier in his career when Cintron was still considered a big puncher and the PR vs Mexico thing was in play.


Lastly...

You say that you have 3 or 4 reasons why you think that his career should have gone differently, well with all due respect, there's a reason your not a promoter.

Let's say you and I have a race horse. We have invested millions of dollars in the care, storage, food, medicine and training of this race horse. Then there's a circuit of races that is a little risky early on in the horses career, so we decide to put him in an easier circuit so we can give him experience, and confidence before we make that leap.

Is that avoiding the big races? Or is that being a smart handler and making sure we get money back on our investment?

See, you are looking at it from a fans perspective, I am not. Probably because I'm in the business of boxing, I train at a pro gym and we put out pro fighters. As harsh as this sounds, I don't waste my time on any kid that walks through the doors of our gym, meaning I will help you here and there but my focus is on the one's that have talent.

Why? Because I'm in it to make money. I don't train for free and while I have given a lot of free time and money to kids, I can't make a living off of doing that.

Canelo has the talent, he has the charisma and he has the marketability because of the way he looks. He's no fraud....

Now is he great? I don't know that yet but we are going to find out really soon and I don't think the guys he's fought are necessarily easy, so calling him a bum (not that you have just what fans say) isn't fair either.

That seems to be the consensus though, he's great or a bum and there's no in between. Don't worry, he's 21 and we will see him this year coming up with the best, then we can make our decisions and judgements.
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