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#1
Old 11-19-2014, 10:47 AM
Wesker115
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Default HW greats vs Wlad's clinching

How would some of the greats from the HW past have dealt with Wlad's obsessive clinching nature?

The Povetkin fight was an embarassment and whilst the Pulev fight was an improvement, what was Klitschko's first move once the bell rung against Pulev? Oh yes, grab him and hold him close.

A 6 foot 7 giant leaning on you non stop is going to tire you out. How would some of history's greatest dealt with it? How would the referee's of those era's have dealt with it?
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#2
Old 11-19-2014, 10:57 AM
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How would todays HW's deal with Lennox' holding and hitting, Holyfields butting, Foremans pushing, Ali's clinching etc.?

In other Words most HW champions have a dirty side to their game so stop crying.
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#3
Old 11-19-2014, 11:13 AM
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Holyfield would of wrestled and worked him inside with his free hand, same with Bowe and if they gained any leverage they would tear Wladimir apart.
Holyfield in particular I think, his style is all kinds of wrong for Wladimir.

Louis was very good at taking a step back and setting up his right hand, I think he'd of probably found a way to deal with it by those means.
Lewis would of just been like Wlad vs Wlad
Ibeabuchi is another good one with his cross-armed guard I think he'd try push Wlad off and he was massively strong inside but I think Wlad would try keep him on the outside first and foremost.
He definitely wouldn't want any of Big George in the clinch, he'd be full on retreating.
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#4
Old 11-19-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
How would todays HW's deal with Lennox' holding and hitting, Holyfields butting, Foremans pushing, Ali's clinching etc.?

In other Words most HW champions have a dirty side to their game so stop crying.
That is what is known as a "false argument." The degree of the infraction is the issue. Ali never went across the ring to clinch an opponent BN. The sheer volume of this behavoir is disturbing and hence worth a look.

I also understand that you guys do not want a troll fest here...But there should be a way to look at this behavoir.
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#5
Old 11-19-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
That is what is known as a "false argument." The degree of the infraction is the issue. Ali never went across the ring to clinch an opponent BN. The sheer volume of this behavoir is disturbing and hence worth a look.

I also understand that you guys do not want a troll fest here...But there should be a way to look at this behavoir.
The thing is that the amount of hate Wlad is getting is over the top. The OP is an example of this. The topic in itself however, when looking through the spite, is interesting.

Now I would certainly agree that Wlad's clinching is a turn off, but so was the infractions of other past HW's as well. What could make the topic interesting is that noone has come even remotely close to giving Wlad any trouble during his reign, so how would past greats have dealt with it could give a fruitfull discussion. It could also turn into a mudslinging affair as a lot of posters in this section have a deepfelt dislike for him for sone reason and then praise Holyfield, Lewis, Marciano and other extremely dirty champions.

Lets see.
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#6
Old 11-19-2014, 04:18 PM
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billea2 once made a very strong case for Jack Johnson being superior with clinch fighting and he would have beaten Wlad on the inside for sure if he would try that against this old timer, and I believe him. Grappling used to be a part of boxing and it's a whole different science that other heavyweights are simply neglecting imo.
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#7
Old 11-19-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BKM-2010 View Post
billea2 once made a very strong case for Jack Johnson being superior with clinch fighting and he would have beaten Wlad on the inside for sure if he would try that against this old timer, and I believe him. Grappling used to be a part of boxing and it's a whole different science that other heavyweights are simply neglecting imo.
I remember that post and the argument is absolutely valid. I would personally think Wlad would have far too much speed, movement and range for Johnson in general, but when on the inside that would be Johnsons game.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
The thing is that the amount of hate Wlad is getting is over the top. The OP is an example of this. The topic in itself however, when looking through the spite, is interesting.

Now I would certainly agree that Wlad's clinching is a turn off, but so was the infractions of other past HW's as well. What could make the topic interesting is that noone has come even remotely close to giving Wlad any trouble during his reign, so how would past greats have dealt with it could give a fruitfull discussion. It could also turn into a mudslinging affair as a lot of posters in this section have a deepfelt dislike for him for sone reason and then praise Holyfield, Lewis, Marciano and other extremely dirty champions.

Lets see.
Dirty? Only Galiento wouldn't shower before a bout!

Yu dont think Vlad's early fights count as trouble? we can certainly say that since he developed with manny Steward that his tactics have put the kabosh down on others.

You are correct that the limitations on in fighting are not Vlad's fault. I mean...what is stopping any of these guys from exploiting that distance? thats a valid question. In professional prize fighting when guys see a weakness a blueprint is created and that weakness is explioted.

The way clinching is dealt with starts with a simple premise: If the guy is holding then he can't be hitting. The other thing is shoulder movement. One of the best things to do is turn the shoulders so that space is created for punches. Exhibit A. Watching Hollyfield against Tyson. When coming in to Tyson Holly made sure Tyson was on his heels, by bringing his head fowards and dropping his hand and shoulder back he could hit Tyson.

Now...the reverse is true for the holder. For Vlad to clinch he is squared up. This makes the kidneys a vulnerable target. I think most champions would go for that kidney shot. A hook probably.

Pressure guys are very comfortable doing these sort of things. Hate to bring up Sanders but....Simply running at Vlad and firing with an intent to keep firing really neutralizes the grapple and this was a prime example of this. Another great example is Homicidal Hank! He always pushed in as he attacked trying to keep the guy on his heels. The pressure LOOKS like it makes it hard for the opponent to step back but in reality the real hard thing to do for the opponent is to create a space where his weight is centered so he can get leverage when returning fire. It does the opponent no good just to step back without any leverage.

I think any pressure fighter from the heavyweight past would try to do this to Vlad....some understood the mechanics better than others. I mean a guy like Frazier wanted to have a sweet spot, a proper distance to throw his hooks, on the other hand a guy like Dempsey whether he understood putting his opponent on his heels, or not, could throw that punch from a very short distance and did not need to set up a sweet spot for his hooks. Tyson is another one who could thow those shots from almost any angle and distance while pushing an opponent back on their heels.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Dirty? Only Galiento wouldn't shower before a bout!
Haha. Haye thought Valuev smelled bad as well.
Quote:

Yu dont think Vlad's early fights count as trouble? we can certainly say that since he developed with manny Steward that his tactics have put the kabosh down on others.
Correct. I also porposefully added 'during his reign'.

Quote:
You are correct that the limitations on in fighting are not Vlad's fault. I mean...what is stopping any of these guys from exploiting that distance? thats a valid question. In professional prize fighting when guys see a weakness a blueprint is created and that weakness is explioted.

The way clinching is dealt with starts with a simple premise: If the guy is holding then he can't be hitting. The other thing is shoulder movement. One of the best things to do is turn the shoulders so that space is created for punches. Exhibit A. Watching Hollyfield against Tyson. When coming in to Tyson Holly made sure Tyson was on his heels, by bringing his head fowards and dropping his hand and shoulder back he could hit Tyson.

Now...the reverse is true for the holder. For Vlad to clinch he is squared up. This makes the kidneys a vulnerable target. I think most champions would go for that kidney shot. A hook probably.

Pressure guys are very comfortable doing these sort of things. Hate to bring up Sanders but....Simply running at Vlad and firing with an intent to keep firing really neutralizes the grapple and this was a prime example of this. Another great example is Homicidal Hank! He always pushed in as he attacked trying to keep the guy on his heels. The pressure LOOKS like it makes it hard for the opponent to step back but in reality the real hard thing to do for the opponent is to create a space where his weight is centered so he can get leverage when returning fire. It does the opponent no good just to step back without any leverage.

I think any pressure fighter from the heavyweight past would try to do this to Vlad....some understood the mechanics better than others. I mean a guy like Frazier wanted to have a sweet spot, a proper distance to throw his hooks, on the other hand a guy like Dempsey whether he understood putting his opponent on his heels, or not, could throw that punch from a very short distance and did not need to set up a sweet spot for his hooks. Tyson is another one who could thow those shots from almost any angle and distance while pushing an opponent back on their heels.
Nice points.

Regarding kidney shots well... they are illegal (as is holding). So it pretty much boils down to what the referee will allow. That was true for earlier champions and it is true for Wlad today. What about those rabbit punches from Pulev? Reminded me of the bayonne bleeder vs. ali.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
How would todays HW's deal with Lennox' holding and hitting, Holyfields butting, Foremans pushing, Ali's clinching etc.?

In other Words most HW champions have a dirty side to their game so stop crying.
This would be the perfect comment to end the thread.

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