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#51
Old 10-27-2012, 11:28 AM
McGoorty
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Originally Posted by SCtrojansbaby View Post
Boxers are athletes and as can be seen in sports which have objective #s to compare they have evolved.
Not really sure of what you meant by that but I think boxing is a very unique sport, there have always been fighters of vastly different styles and I rarely see any two fighters who fight exactly the same way because there really is no right way but you can see Muhammad Ali and film of Joe Jeanette to see there there are as many similarities as there are differences, for instance they held hands low most of the time and were great fighters on the outside. Boxing is FULL of intangibles, you can see a guy annihilate a guy in one round who destroyed the guy who knocked him out easily. -------------------- ------------------- Usain bolt is the most gifted sprinter of all time and unless theres a guy punching him in the face he wins. boxing isnt like that, its as hard to predict as horseracing..... the human body never runs at peak performance every day of the year, one night a guy is as strong as an ox and bouncing about like a jackrabbit,, two months later after maybe a bout of the flu he enters the ring flat as a tack and cant bring his whole game to the table... COMBAT is like nothing else, there is DANGER in every round, one mistake could see your career over, maybe your life. -------------------------- ----------------------- People like to talk about evolution,,, once men we had men like the Romans who used swords, and when disarmed they would fight with bare hands, always to the death, do you think we have many men today who could beat those guys up ??.. no way in hell,.. all it takes is a new technological innovation like say The GUN, and then even if Dilbert the cross-eyed accountant has one he can kill Julius Caesar himself with very little effort or risk, most sports are like that, change raquets from wooden to the new ones today, and the guy with the wooden raquet is feeling like he's facing a gun. For combat to evolve to a higher form, theres nothing like a fight to the death,.. In boxing so many things have cleaned up the sport,, thats where the evolution in boxing is rooted,, the authorities will continue to try and minimise risk, safety is a concern today, I doubt that safety was not even a consideration in the early days of boxing. I forsee a future time when bouts will probably just be 5 rounds maximun and other things to make boxing safer, therefore boxers will adapt but we may hardly even recognise the sport.
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#52
Old 10-27-2012, 11:36 AM
McGoorty
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Originally Posted by B-Bomber View Post
I might be biased on this, so correct me if I am wrong, but Joe Louis was
6***8242; 2***8243; / 188cm , thus rather tall , with a rather good 76***8243; / 193cm reach.

In my opinion he would blast most, if not all the current HW division, Klit Bros included.

Even though he only weighted around 202lbs/92kg on fight night, I can see him dominating most opponents at a weight around 215lbs/98kg .
Yep, I agree, he was maybe the greatest heavyweight ever, the huys today arent half as good. But I do believe weight is a massive advantage in boxing, its been proven time and time again, if it wasnt they wouldnt have weight divisions. Louis has more talent than a Klitschco, but a Klitchco has far more talent than a Primo Carnera or a Buddy Baer.
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#53
Old 10-27-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by McGoorty View Post
Yep, I agree, he was maybe the greatest heavyweight ever, the huys today arent half as good. But I do believe weight is a massive advantage in boxing, its been proven time and time again, if it wasnt they wouldnt have weight divisions. Louis has more talent than a Klitschco, but a Klitchco has far more talent than a Primo Carnera or a Buddy Baer.

louis would probably have more trouble with vitali, who has a great chin


wladimir was rocked around by a man of very similar size to louis in lamon brewster. 6 douce. 77 inch reach. 225 lbs, but with a bit of loose skin.


i think wladimir would eat a right hand and start to go within the first few rounds. it's a rough task to fight the most intelligent right handed power puncher of all time when you've got a light chin.

wladimir's only hope would be to get close enough when louis was being offensive to smother him (drape a shoulder over him and walk to the ropes,) and then keep the fight at a great distance for the balance of the rounds. if he did that for a few rounds louis power would invariably wane some, given that he's got to deal with a guy of such great size pushing him around and leaning on him.
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#54
Old 10-28-2012, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by B-Bomber View Post
Less kids decide to box, that is a fact I cannot deny. There were many more professional boxers in the past, and more people boxing, in general.

And yes, talent did not disappear, but I sense a growing lack of ethics in most sports, including boxing.

Taking Tyson as an example, as long as he was taught to follow a certain path, made of respect for his opponents and hard work he did shine.
Once he lost his "teacher" he started to loose it.
In spite of his talent he destroyed himself and part of his career.

The fat HW's you mention are/could be a result of lack of ethic/ dedication.


I do not claim to be right, I actually hope to be wrong, but as said that is the feeling I get.
Do you have any stats on what you're saying? I'm not trying to be a smartass. I've heard that said a lot, but I've never actually seen it substantiated. Professional boxing is much more global than it used to be and the world's population is a lot larger than what it once was. That's why I have big doubts about there having been more boxers in the past. It sounds like more of a US-centric argument.
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#55
Old 10-28-2012, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck View Post
Do you have any stats on what you're saying? I'm not trying to be a smartass. I've heard that said a lot, but I've never actually seen it substantiated. Professional boxing is much more global than it used to be and the world's population is a lot larger than what it once was. That's why I have big doubts about there having been more boxers in the past. It sounds like more of a US-centric argument.
No problem, it is a completely legit point!

I read that in an interview with Mike Silver ( http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler012010.htm ).

I must agree with you though, it is probably a US-centric view.

I am European, and I remember my father telling me of great boxing matches, of people staying up all night just to listen to the radio.

When tv's started to be accesible, he told me of people gathering in his house to watch football (soccer) or boxing, since my grandpa was one of the first guys to purchase a tv in his neighborood.

Nowadays boxing is not popular over here, scarcely practiced. There are not many gyms anymore, while almost everybody about my father's age tried to box.

These though are hardly facts, for there might be more people boxing in Eastern Europe or Asia.


I have attempted to find some official stats, but so far to no avail.

I would like to see numbers though.

Thanks for the comment!

Last edited by B-Bomber; 10-28-2012 at 06:05 AM.
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#56
Old 10-28-2012, 06:32 AM
McGoorty
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Originally Posted by B-Bomber View Post
No problem, it is a completely legit point!

I read that in an interview with Mike Silver ( http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler012010.htm ).

I must agree with you though, it is probably a US-centric view.

I am European, and I remember my father telling me of great boxing matches, of people staying up all night just to listen to the radio.

When tv's started to be accesible, he told me of people gathering in his house to watch football (soccer) or boxing, since my grandpa was one of the first guys to purchase a tv in his neighborood.

Nowadays boxing is not popular over here, scarcely practiced. There are not many gyms anymore, while almost everybody about my father's age tried to box.

These though are hardly facts, for there might be more people boxing in Eastern Europe or Asia.


I have attempted to find some official stats, but so far to no avail.

I would like to see numbers though.

Thanks for the comment!
I am not sure of exactly how many pros there are these days, maybe more than New York back then but I know that there were many more boxers in the countries who have a long history of boxing, I cant say about a place like Africa where I suspect there is way more then 70 years ago, but the high level of experience in countries like the USA, Australia, UK and Canada will be a long time coming to places like Africa. In Australia now we have so few professionals that any big suburb of a place like Pittsburgh 60 years ago would have outnumbered our numbers here 10 to 1... and I mean just a suburb of high density. I am positive also that the amount of boxers in the US now is minimal compared to back then, and why would they when they could choose any one of a dozen or two other sports and make millions........................... In Australia in 1950 there were almost 400 professional fighters in just the welterweight division.. maybe up to 500 ( I dont have that old 1950 magazine any more, it literally fell to pieces)... I compared that to what we had 10 years ago..... we had less than 40 pros in the welterweight division... its still going downhill... there will be many more Robbie Peden's who will leave to live in America even before turning pro, the level of experience we had here is nothing compared to the days when we had truly great trainers like Ambrose Palmer and Ern McQuillan...... those guys were teaching along the lines that Larry Foley learned from Jem Mace and passed on to Bob Fitzsimmons and peter Jackson, of course each great trainer had their own personal touches......... we still have Johnny Lewis, I wonder who will step into his footsteps. I am sure Australia isnt alone in this.
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#57
Old 10-28-2012, 01:04 PM
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Okay, it looks like the stats don't really exist. Using an estimate from 2008 that I'm reading off wiki, there are about 7 billion people today. In 1930, there were about 2 billion. So there are about 3.5 times more people today. Add to it that the underdeveloped countries back then pretty much didn't have access to boxing, and Russia and Eastern Europe weren't producing any pros that I know of. That means that in order for the numbers of boxers back then to be the same as today, the developed countries would've had to produce a lot more boxers back then to match today's world numbers (I'm guessing at least 10 times more, maybe higher). Also, because of today's higher population and living standards, the athletes (the ones weeded out of the total population) today have a higher starting point than in the past. So I'll stay skeptical.
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#58
Old 10-28-2012, 03:00 PM
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louis would probably have more trouble with vitali, who has a great chin


wladimir was rocked around by a man of very similar size to louis in lamon brewster. 6 douce. 77 inch reach. 225 lbs, but with a bit of loose skin.


i think wladimir would eat a right hand and start to go within the first few rounds. it's a rough task to fight the most intelligent right handed power puncher of all time when you've got a light chin.

wladimir's only hope would be to get close enough when louis was being offensive to smother him (drape a shoulder over him and walk to the ropes,) and then keep the fight at a great distance for the balance of the rounds. if he did that for a few rounds louis power would invariably wane some, given that he's got to deal with a guy of such great size pushing him around and leaning on him.
Going into Louis' range is very hard when he is so quick and accurate, I honestly think Louis would get to him eventually. He'd be losing at the time though I think.
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#59
Old 10-28-2012, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
Going into Louis' range is very hard when he is so quick and accurate, I honestly think Louis would get to him eventually. He'd be losing at the time though I think.

wladimir would wait for louis to come forward, undoubtedly, and then try and pick a spot to clinch.

i too think louis wins via stoppage.
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#60
Old 10-28-2012, 03:11 PM
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I am not sure of exactly how many pros there are these days, maybe more than New York back then but I know that there were many more boxers in the countries who have a long history of boxing, I cant say about a place like Africa where I suspect there is way more then 70 years ago, but the high level of experience in countries like the USA, Australia, UK and Canada will be a long time coming to places like Africa. In Australia now we have so few professionals that any big suburb of a place like Pittsburgh 60 years ago would have outnumbered our numbers here 10 to 1... and I mean just a suburb of high density. I am positive also that the amount of boxers in the US now is minimal compared to back then, and why would they when they could choose any one of a dozen or two other sports and make millions........................... In Australia in 1950 there were almost 400 professional fighters in just the welterweight division.. maybe up to 500 ( I dont have that old 1950 magazine any more, it literally fell to pieces)... I compared that to what we had 10 years ago..... we had less than 40 pros in the welterweight division... its still going downhill... there will be many more Robbie Peden's who will leave to live in America even before turning pro, the level of experience we had here is nothing compared to the days when we had truly great trainers like Ambrose Palmer and Ern McQuillan...... those guys were teaching along the lines that Larry Foley learned from Jem Mace and passed on to Bob Fitzsimmons and peter Jackson, of course each great trainer had their own personal touches......... we still have Johnny Lewis, I wonder who will step into his footsteps. I am sure Australia isnt alone in this.
That's a good point actually. Why do there seem to be fewer great trainers these days, passing down their knowledge to the next generation? Are there too few guys that want to be pro boxers these days or too few people willing to learn and pass down those teachings? I was thinking of this more recently too with the tragic passing of Manny Stewart this week.
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