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#111
Old 10-07-2012, 11:12 AM
squealpiggy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannie Phresh View Post
Im giving the facts and possibilities therein. You want to get down to it, state your position clearly. Are you saying that their is absolutely no possibilty the government is using the vague wording of section 1021 of the NDAA bill to violate rights of detention without charge and trial by a jury of our peers?
I would say that's a danger. Not a huge one though. This is derailing the topic at hand, I'll make a new topic for this and link it below momentarily.

EDIT - link to new thread

Quote:
If thats your case then why is the government fighting so hard to secure that vague definition of enemy combatants as opposed to just rewording that section to clearly define their intentions and practices? Instead of changing topics stick to the subject. Are you confident enough in your opinion to say that the government wouldnt abuse this power the way Judge Katherine Forrest said it could be used. If you change topics or avoid answering these questions then you have definitively lost this debate.
A few states have identified a possible constitutional danger and are fighting it through the courts. This is what should happen in a democracy. But tying this back into the topic at hand, concerns over the constitutional validity of this "new" legislation (it enacts nothing new and affirms legislation passed over ten years ago) do not mean that protesters are being held under its auspices.

In fact the only references I have seen to this "speculation" are conspiracy theory websites and Russia Today!

Last edited by squealpiggy; 10-07-2012 at 11:21 AM..
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#112
Old 10-07-2012, 11:21 AM
APPONO ASTOS
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Originally Posted by ShaunRoberts View Post
What does the Gulf of Tonkin incident have to do with a conspiracy thread? Just like 'Nayirah' and the baby incubators, It's proof the government lies to go to war.

Although... I guess you're right. They have no place in a conspiracy thread, as they are undeniable facts.
yup...like they lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. millions of Iraqi civilians and thousands of soldiers lost, and for what?
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#113
Old 10-07-2012, 11:24 AM
Mannie Phresh
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
I would say that's a danger. Not a huge one though. This is derailing the topic at hand, I'll make a new topic for this and link it below momentarily.



A few states have identified a possible constitutional danger and are fighting it through the courts. This is what should happen in a democracy. But tying this back into the topic at hand, concerns over the constitutional validity of this "new" legislation (it enacts nothing new and affirms legislation passed over ten years ago) do not mean that protesters are being held under its auspices.

In fact the only references I have seen to this "speculation" are conspiracy theory websites and Russia Today!
Our opinions on the severity of bills like NDAA and the Patriot Act differ. I feel its important to examine all trains of thought and opinions on these matters as I feel major American media is extremely lacking in legitimate journalism as opposed to being a mouthpiece for which ever administration is in power. Im aware that Putins totalitarianism is more sever than Bush or Obamas but fear that if we dont fight tooth and nail for every right our government takes away in 20 years time or less we'll see Greenday being imprisoned for mocking President Hailey Joel Osmant.
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#114
Old 10-07-2012, 11:25 AM
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Here's the thing about these conspiracy theorists:

They want me to believe that this highly organized and secretive group meticulously coordinated airplane attacks that would bring down the World Trade Center, yet they forgot to account for things such as, oh I don't know... having an actual plane as evidence at the Pentagon.

That is ridiculous.


They will meticulously plan to kill JFK....but sloppily planned the diversion by putting an unqualified marksman as the patsy in an impossible shooting position "a half mile"* away.

That makes no sense.


Side note: I have been to the site of the JFK assassination on several occasions.
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#115
Old 10-07-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
Not to get on a 9/11 binge, but to prove a point, there are movies, books and even papers filed by noted Scientists and Physicists,
Who are these "noted Scientists and Physicists"? Why are they noted? What are they noted for? What papers were published? Where were they published? What was the response of the rest of the scientific community? Why did you capitalise the word "scientist" and the word "physicist"?

You're attempting an argument for authority. It's fallacious.

Quote:
questioning and challenging almost every aspect of the conclusions formed by the 9-11 commission. Yet, the only response they received from the Govt. was to discredit the work as unfounded and unsupported --
They never even addressed the information presented. So, this theory that you have of challenging properly doesn't hold a drop of water.
Are you seriously suggesting that nobody has challenged any 9/11 conspiracy theories?

Quote:
GEORGE W. BUSH, JR: "Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories"

Thankyou. He's right, by the way. We shouldn't tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories that attempt to shift the blame from the terrorists who committed these terrible crimes. Why should we?

Quote:
For anyone to openly state, that the US Government doesn't LIE, CHEAT and cover-up, makes them the biggest fool on the planet.
Nobody has made this claim. Politicians are fairly notorious for being untrustworthy.

Quote:
Economic Hitman reveals shocking truths about the Government

Youtube, didn't watch. Summarise please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
I'm going to use a page out of your {Squealpiggy's} playbook of denial ....

"These sources aren't credible, they're internet hacks that lack any measure of credibility."
I would never insist you accept any link I post at face value. I always encourage you to seek the original source. Check my assertions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoggyLungs View Post
yup...like they lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. millions of Iraqi civilians and thousands of soldiers lost, and for what?
I opposed a unilateral invasion of Iraq, and the blundering insistence of the Bush administration (and it was the administration in this circumstance) that all intelligence be focused on finding these WMDs instead of in counterinsurgency meant the deaths of thousands of people both allied and Iraqi. By retroactively attempting to justify the war instead of effectively fighting it they allowed competing groups of insurgents to make a foothold in the country and it was this, primarily, that led to the mess it became.

I shed no tears for Saddam Hussein, but the invasion of Iraq was bizarre given the timing and the ludicrous misplacement of priority demonstrates that both Bush and Blair had little confidence in their justification for war.

Having said that I would have supported a multilateral invasion but of course this was vetoes at the UN by various nations who were benefiting from Saddam's leadership of Iraq. That's a different topic altogether though.
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#116
Old 10-07-2012, 11:55 AM
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I'll admit to jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon from time to time.

However, I do acknowledge that many conspiracy theories have yet to be proven as valid. And there are many folks who go overboard with the CT's to the point of outlandish fantasies.

At the very least, they've proven to be a subject of unending discussion.

My take on it is many people are on 'high alert', so-to-speak, due to numerous events of the past which have occurred throughout history.

I believe the root cause of conspiracy theories originate from the fact that human beings are capable of the most malicious and atrocious acts upon other human beings since the beginning of time.

Most folks just don't plain believe that the entire world is full of the most beautiful, loving, caring, and compassionate human beings who would never lie to, cheat, and deceive another human being.

In my opinion, the following historical events have contributed to the continuous belief in conspiracy theories ...

The deceit and subsequent murder and land-steal of the Native Americans, slavery, the holocaust, The Tuskegee Experiment, and whistle blowing events that were uncovered by other humans after a period of sabotage and secrecy by the perpetrators, just to name a few.

I may be somewhat off point, but that's my personal perspective on why conspiracy theories have been and will continue to exist.

Last edited by MindBat; 10-07-2012 at 11:57 AM..
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#117
Old 10-07-2012, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mannie Phresh View Post
Our opinions on the severity of bills like NDAA and the Patriot Act differ.
The fact that we can openly discuss and debate these things without any fear whatsoever of consequence demonstrates that your worst fears aren't even close to being realised.

Quote:
I feel its important to examine all trains of thought and opinions on these matters as I feel major American media is extremely lacking in legitimate journalism as opposed to being a mouthpiece for which ever administration is in power.
Here I strongly disagree. The issue with American journalism is that it is all about the ratings. It's competing with other news networks and withother entertainment media and so it aims for audience share and not actually providing the truth. At least that's what's on TV. But all easy-access media has the same aims including Alex Jones' various endeavours: They're looking to entice advertisers by getting an audience share.

Quote:
Im aware that Putins totalitarianism is more sever than Bush or Obamas
Which is why I find it so objectional when the former KGB official news agency engages in such handwringing about US human rights abuses.

Quote:
but fear that if we dont fight tooth and nail for every right our government takes away in 20 years time or less
In history there has never been a situation in which the rights of the populace were slowly eroded. Authoritarian states are always, without exception, the result of revolution.

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we'll see Greenday being imprisoned for mocking President Hailey Joel Osmant.
This was pretty funny though
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#118
Old 10-07-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
The real question shouldn't be "Do you hate conspiracy theorist", it should be why is there such a campaign to downplay or invalidate ideas formulated outside of the normal "BOX" of common thinking.

For anyone to DENY the existence of so-called SECRET\ELITE GROUPS, that wield political influence, financial influence and influence in medicine and agriculture, would be completely foolish and naive. And it goes to a limited and narrow way of thinking, that only accounts for the forces or entities that can be SEEN, not for the UNSEEN.

Its like acknowledging the existence of water because one can touch, see and feel it, while at the same time denying the existence of air, because it doesn't have attributes that can be validated by sensory perception.

Here's a thought: I've noticed a growing group of like-minded individuals, who almost treat any UNCOMMON thought or IDEA, that goes against the norm, as some type of conspiracy -- And those who foster these ideas, as Conspiracy Theorists.

If you look at the term: CONSPIRACY THEORY
a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators.
{merriam-webster.com}


The terminology itself, doesn't eliminate the possibility that unseen powerful forces exist -- Only that events, are often attributed to, or the result of their actions.

***

Here's my take on the topic OF "CONSPIRACY THEORISTS" and those groups that constantly campaign against THEORIES formulated outside of the box.

What harm does it do, to have THEORIES?
Why is it necessary to challenge such THEORIES?


I was told once by one of my Professor's, that for twelve years of grade schooling and four additional years of college, we coupled with our chosen major, are being programmed how to RESPOND to AUTHORITY.


When we VIEW events and or CIRCUMSTANCES differently from the NORM, and formulate IDEAS that can be considered "Outside of the box" then it should be expected, that coming from those who have accepted the PROGRAMMING through and through, to be viewed as REBELS, CONSPIRATORS and the like. The goal is to physiologically embarrass and shame those individuals back inline with the COMMON WAY OF THINKING.

It is part of the programming that many have accepted willingly and for some unwillingly. So, whenever I witness someone constantly challenging any theory that can be considered abnormal, with mundane dialog and tangential arguments, I understand that this ACT is originating from someone who is PROGRAMMED to think a certain way, to FEEL a certain way and to INTERPRET events as prescribed without question.

As an example {maybe a poor one}: When G.W.Bush made his post 9/11 address to the nation, he stated that Conspiracy Theorists would not be tolerated. This was a signal to those PROGRAMMED, to go after everyone who formulated IDEAS, that went CONTRARY to the explanation that he offered. And to this day, we have a group of individuals, WHO ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM MENTALLY, that always RISE to challenge those who would think "Outside of the box" and suggest, that something was foul about 9/11.

Its all about the mental programming for those that are of the system and lack of programming for those that think outside of the box.
Your response to authority is that its ok for police to assault innocent people. Way to think outside the box.
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#119
Old 10-07-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CeeMCee View Post
Your response to authority is that its ok for police to assault innocent people. Way to think outside the box.
Let it go dude, you misread a phrase, misinterpreted the meaning and have been on a tangent ever since.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
Let it go dude, you misread a phrase, misinterpreted the meaning and have been on a tangent ever since.
Not at all. I only brought it up because you're a bend over and grab your ankles type of guy and have no business telling others how to question authority. You'd rather make up some silly conspiracy than to actually do something when authority figures abuse their power, you're a clown.
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