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#21
Old 10-06-2012, 10:06 AM
UglyPug
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Originally Posted by Russian Crushin View Post
You guys are over thinking this. its a Highschool entrance exam. Best way to do good on just about any test is to study hard.

I wasn't talking about the test. We were discussing the "nature" vs. "nurture" aspect of intelligence.

My post above this one addresses why I think it's a BS claim of how a standardized test can be racist, or biased.
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#22
Old 10-06-2012, 10:43 AM
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Racist? No.

Exclusive? Yes.

I took the tests trying to get into the top 3 NYC high schools when I was younger and I can emphatically state the public school curriculum from grade school to junior high DOES NOT prepare you for the Stuy's test, etc.

For a month or so before exams my junior high implemented an after school program to prepare those of us with potential for these and it was a gross failure.

It was too much material to understand and retain ALIEN to what we were currently being taught in the classroom, to cover.

I think 1 hispanic and an asian girlfriend of mine passed it, but these were kids that were already ahead of us from a readiness and work ethic standpoint (these kids weren't with my class of grade school -> junior high converts, their former school was at another location originally).

Blacks and Hispanics could pass these tests in large numbers if the public school curriculum didn't baby them in general. That's where great parenting making up the difference of just satisfactory learning environments comes in.

We could even overcome our 'dumb' parents handicap if the Board of Ed. was looking to push the kids.. and there lies the actual line of speculative sabotage to minorities, when you see a system in place that doesn't take care of a majority of students.

Why when I take a test to a specialized school, is it unlike ANYTHING I was doing in the classroom at the time? It's one thing if we couldn't handle the load, but the tests' subject matter was not being covered at all in our classes during school hours.

More power to those kids who could still apply themselves in the face of an OBVIOUS obstacle looking back on it, they already had the tools to overcome not being overly familiar with the content beforehand, but for the rest of us?

That was some bullsh*t , and in my honest opinion it's a test that clearly filters out: those who were aware of what kind of material were on the tests prior or have the mental acumen to again, overcome the obstacle of new things to learn and understand in a very short time - from those who would be considered undesirable.

Nobody wants dummies, but it may look like it goes beyond an education issue when so many minority kids with potential are excluded from making the cut of best of the best, because of my guess that it's by design to keep the behavioral negatives of a lot of these kids out of prestigious classrooms.

It's ingenious in a way, even if it were discriminatory, there's no way you could point the finger at it transparently.

And it is true that you can beat your intelligence lot in life. I'm a living example.

I'm turning out better than if I went to any specialized school.
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#23
Old 10-06-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by #1Assassin View Post
i havent seen the test myself so i dont know if the claims are correct, i dont think i ever said they were. all i said was ppl on this site misunderstood the point of the article.

they thought ppl were mad bcuz blacks and hispanics werent being bumped ahead of whites who performed better just bcuz of their race. thats not the case. the article was saying that the tests were racially biased and blacks and hispanics were at a disadvantage, again i dont know if its true or not but thats where the critisism is from.

btw is the test really just omath and english? if so that obviously doesnt cover all bases, alot more subjects than english and math should be included. geography and history in particular but everything (or close to it) really, the racial bias holds true as well. if i was to name two subjects that blacks and hispanics tend to perform at their worst in it would be english and math. its a cultural thing and if thats all the tests cover its very culturally biased.
So you are telling me that asian people are naturally good at english considering that most asian people are bilingual and have to learn both english and cantonese/mandarin or even both. I think you are trying to make up excuses for black/latino people. Black people are usually monolingual and just speak english in america. Latinos are similar to asians and are bilingual. Also, they put all white people into one group but it would be interesting to see how many of those white people are eastern european/jewish/italian/spanish etc who are white people who tend to be bilingual. My point is black people usually just need to learn one language let alone 2, so the excuses you are trying to make for black people are unfounded.

Also, the article did state there are many other good schools who also have tests that have a broader mixed test component. But that doesn't mean we should force all schools to have the same test for everybody. It's good to have a choice. English and maths are subjects most people know about and that's why they are used are the preferential subject material on these tests.

If black/hispanic people are bad at english/maths then it's up to them as a social/ethnic group to correct that issue. I already stated in my previous post on this thread that there are poor asian families that become rich in a few generations. Black/hispanic families have the same opportunity to do that.

Why bother making excuses for them? Are you telling me black/hispanic people can't learn english and maths as well as other races? Because that's nonsense!

Most black people have suffered from slavery and chinese people have come from a country that was 50 years behind western technology. Both groups have basically had serious issues yet chinese people have an edge due to a very strong family centric relationship. Once some black people start having more faith in their abilities and start realising a strong family centric attitude is a good start then they will realise they can do anything the other races can do.

Last edited by Xercen; 10-06-2012 at 11:36 AM..
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#24
Old 10-06-2012, 11:44 AM
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well, the schools are elite for a reason.
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#25
Old 10-06-2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by #1Assassin View Post
i havent seen the test myself so i dont know if the claims are correct, i dont think i ever said they were. all i said was ppl on this site misunderstood the point of the article.

they thought ppl were mad bcuz blacks and hispanics werent being bumped ahead of whites who performed better just bcuz of their race. thats not the case. the article was saying that the tests were racially biased and blacks and hispanics were at a disadvantage, again i dont know if its true or not but thats where the critisism is from.

btw is the test really just omath and english? if so that obviously doesnt cover all bases, alot more subjects than english and math should be included. geography and history in particular but everything (or close to it) really, the racial bias holds true as well. if i was to name two subjects that blacks and hispanics tend to perform at their worst in it would be english and math. its a cultural thing and if thats all the tests cover its very culturally biased.



I agree with Russian on the point about the tests being straightforward; you know exactly what types of questions the tests are going to ask you. To do the best you possibly can on the test, you need to start practicing answering these types of questions as far in advance as possible. practice answering them under the same time constraints as well.

Anyway, IMO it wouldn't be fair to the white, and asian kids, and really the black, and latino kids either if the test makers said: "how can we skew the test to try and make these kids score higher, and white/asian kids score lower"? To ignore the real question, and the real issue behind the disparity in test scores, would be a grave injustice to everybody.

The question parents, schools, and teachers should be asking is: Why are black, and latino kids so far behind in English, and Math? And what can we do to improve their abilities in these areas?
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#26
Old 10-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AntonTheMedium View Post
well, the schools are elite for a reason.
It's kind of smoke and mirrors though. Imagine being a solid runner and you win PLENTY of races, and later get invited to a top notch one with a large prize.

Now you find out at a point very close to event time, that you'll be doing something you haven't, barely, or if ever trained for - run a 3 legged race AND a long distance one! Your handlers never told or prepared you for this (The Board of Education)

If you lose those races, would it be fair to assume that you're not a good runner?

These AAA school tests gamed you like that.

Last edited by Haglerwins; 10-06-2012 at 12:27 PM..
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#27
Old 10-06-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Haglerwins View Post
It's kind of smoke and mirrors though. Imagine being a solid runner and you win PLENTY of races, and later get invited to a top notch one with a large prize.

Now you find out at a point very close to event time, that you'll be doing something you haven't, barely, or if ever trained for - run a 3 legged race AND a long distance one! Your handlers never told or prepared you for this (The Board of Education)

If you lose those races, would it be fair to assume that you're not a good runner?

These AAA school tests gamed you like that.
No they dont, There are no surprises on the test. You study FOR the test, Its pretty simple. My HS never prepared me for the SAT either. Old test are available to practice from as well a many many books and study guides

This is an ADVANCE placement exam. If they dumb it down so that anybody would get extremely high grades, that wouldnt make sense.

They test is rather complicated for the average person, this is obviously done on purpose because they want the best of the best.
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#28
Old 10-06-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Haglerwins View Post
It's kind of smoke and mirrors though. Imagine being a solid runner and you win PLENTY of races, and later get invited to a top notch one with a large prize.

Now you find out at a point very close to event time, that you'll be doing something you haven't, barely, or if ever trained for - run a 3 legged race AND a long distance one! Your handlers never told or prepared you for this (The Board of Education)

If you lose those races, would it be fair to assume that you're not a good runner?

These AAA school tests gamed you like that.

Lol that's just not true man.

These tests are very straightforward (not the questions themselves - they can be quite difficult). There are literally unlimited amount of practice questions you can take to prepare yourself for answering these types of questions under the time restraints.

The test will be the exact same format, and the exact same types of questions. If they were to change up the testing format, they wouldn't just do it right before the day the test is given?

So if you were a runner, this would be a type of race your handlers could prepare you for, for months, and months - maybe even a year or more. THis wouldn't be a race they invited you to last minute - a race with a strange format you wouldn't have the chance to prepare for.
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#29
Old 10-06-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haglerwins View Post
It's kind of smoke and mirrors though. Imagine being a solid runner and you win PLENTY of races, and later get invited to a top notch one with a large prize.

Now you find out at a point very close to event time, that you'll be doing something you haven't, barely, or if ever trained for - run a 3 legged race AND a long distance one! Your handlers never told or prepared you for this (The Board of Education)

If you lose those races, would it be fair to assume that you're not a good runner?

These AAA school tests gamed you like that.
That was a horrible analogy
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#30
Old 10-06-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Russian Crushin View Post
No they dont, There are no surprises on the test. You study FOR the test, Its pretty simple. My HS never prepared me for the SAT either. Old test are available to practice from as well a many many books and study guides

This is an ADVANCE placement exam. If they dumb it down so that anybody would get extremely high grades, that wouldnt make sense.

They test is rather complicated for the average person, this is obviously done on purpose because they want the best of the best.
I said NOTHING about dumbing anything down. I said the subject matter was NOT taught prior to the month or so we had a special after school program for it in JUNIOR HIGH. Not even being aware of info not long prior to a test isn't a measure of intelligence or aptitude.

The SAT is a different animal and HS does make you aware of what kind of test you're taking though you never practice in the classroom. When I took the ones for the HS tests back in the day, we were being hit with all kinds of **** for the first time.

It speaks volumes when only 2 kids passed it, and the rest of us weren't slouches. And the hispanic kid who passed was NOT smarter than me in general (we had global studies together and I'd run rings around him).
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