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#41
Old 10-04-2012, 12:02 PM
shade darkar
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no he wont. he will be remembered as a good fighter that had no real challenges.

his best win is against a cruiserweight. you dont go down as the GOAT when your fighting guys like mormeck.
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#42
Old 10-04-2012, 12:15 PM
NEETzsche
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pulev will beat him.
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#43
Old 10-04-2012, 12:33 PM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by sunny31 View Post
Lewis avenged both those losses by brutal KO. Wlad didn't for whatever reason. Wlad has a very long way to go before he is considered with Lennox, for now you would do well to compare him to someone a bit lower in the echelon of great heavyweights. Wlads best wins are against Byrd and Haye, I think Lennox has at least 6-7 wins better than that. He has marquee wins. Wlad has none, he has only beaten SOME good fighters, and lost to some pretty average fighters, more average than the fighters Lewis lost to.

In fact if you assess Lewis' resume it is just better across the board, the division was more competitive then, there was a pretty decent gatekeeper level in the 90's, then you had very good fighters like Bruno who held titles, and then the top tier guys.

Plus - as someone has already mentioned if you just use your boxing brain (if you actually have one) and assess the fighters Lennox had more tools, they were similar to a certain extent but Lennox was far more versatile, stronger, better in that style. He was less stiff and didn't have to rely on holding to keep himself safe in the ring, he had a better chin too, better combinations, faster, more skill. I think the only thing Wlad does better is defence, and I would say it is to the detriment of his offence like he doesn't have right balance. Against a great fighter we would have found out how good that defence actually is. I don't want to be too negative on Wlad because he is great in how own right, but the comparisons with Lennox are silly and unfounded, Wlad doesn't stack up to Lennox in any way, not many if any heavyweights do.
Just when I thought I will read a nice clear post
It amazed me how people become such cry - babies when you say something that might possibly be taken against their loves...

Name 7 Lennox wins that are better than Wlad's over Haye.

Just saying resume wise they are not that far away how some people want to see it.
I certainly wouldn't agree on comment that Wlad's only advantage is his defence. He is definitely stronger puncher and most talented between the two (Steward's words).

All the Wlad's losses happened when he was way far from his prime. At the time he developed Sanders and Purrity fights would make absolutely no sense. He revenged the lost over Brewster in the great fashion.

How I see it Lennox best wins are : Bruno, Golota, Hollyfield, Rahman, Tyson and Vitali.

For the last two I don't give him too much credit. Rahman is not even near HOF level. I give him all the credit for Golota, Bruno and Hollyfield.

Wlad's best wins are : Byrd (x2), Peter, Haye.
Lennox wins are still better but it is not that far Wlad couldn't reach or even pass it.

Lennox was a fantastic fighter so is Wlad. Could we compare the two.
Time will tell after Wlad retires.

Last edited by Simurgh; 10-04-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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#44
Old 10-04-2012, 12:38 PM
4Corners
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
Just when I thought I will read a nice clear post
It amazed me how people become such cry - babies when you say something that might possibly be taken against their loves...

Name 7 Lennox wins that are better than Wlad's over Haye.

Just saying resume wise they are not that far away how some people want to see it.
I certainly wouldn't agree on comment that Wlad's only advantage is his defence. He is definitely stronger puncher and most talented between the two (Steward's words).

All the Wlad's losses happened when he was way far from his prime. At the time he developed Sanders and Purrity fights would make absolutely no sense. He revenged the lost over Brewster in the great fashion.

How I see it Lennox best wins are : Bruno, Golota, Hollyfield, Rahman, Tyson and Vitali.

For the last two I don't give him too much credit. Rahman is not even near HOF level. I give him all the credit for Golota, Bruno and Hollyfield.

Wlad's best wins are : Byrd (x2), Peter, Haye.
Lennox wins are still better but it is not that far Wlad couldn't reach or even pass it.

Lennox was a fantastic fighter so is Wlad. Could we compare the two.
Time will tell after Wlad retires.
The thing is though, Lennox beating a past prime-still good Holyfield is far better than beating Haye, Byrd, and Peter (this guy would not be a Top HW in most era's since the 50's/60's). Same thing with Bowe beating a prime Holyfield.

Plus, Lennox was hurt by the fact that Bowe refused to fight him, in what would have been the biggest HW fight in the 90's along side Tyson-Holyfield, and one of the biggest since the Ali-Frazier/Foreman days in the 70's.
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#45
Old 10-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by 4Corners View Post
The thing is though, Lennox beating a past prime-still good Holyfield is far better than beating Haye, Byrd, and Peter (this guy would not be a Top HW in most era's since the 50's/60's). Same thing with Bowe beating a prime Holyfield.

Plus, Lennox was hurt by the fact that Bowe refused to fight him, in what would have been the biggest HW fight in the 90's along side Tyson-Holyfield, and one of the biggest since the Ali-Frazier/Foreman days in the 70's.
I agree on this! But I can't see how is that relevant at all. If Wlad had Fraizer to fight against he might have prove himself even better. I actually think that Wlad is much more hurt by the available opposition than Lennox was.

I agree on Holyfield comment as well but I also note that it wasn't the best version of Holyfiled and they had at least one close fight. And for those who say Haye is the Cruiseweight I also note that Haye is the bigger fighter (not better) than Holyfiled who also came from Cruiseweight.

Holyfiled that fought Lennox would beat Haye that fought Wlad but it wouldn't be domination, rather a relatively comfortable win - less dominant than Wlad's.

Last edited by Simurgh; 10-04-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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#46
Old 10-04-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Corners View Post
H2H you're right, but based on era/resume/career, Joe Louis' resume is 100 times better than either Klitschko.

Wlad and Vitali H2H, they lose to Ali/Foreman/Holmes/Holyfield/Lewis prime for prime. And fights with Liston, Tyson, and Bowe would be 50/50.
Get of the crack!
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#47
Old 10-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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I have my reservations.

Even though his style is surely effective ,Wlad, in my opinion, won't be considered -the- GOAT, for several reasons, which have little to do with his undeniable effectiveness.

1) Charisma. To quote Mike Tyson " These two guys are gentlemen, people love drama". Fighters like Louis or Alž are known, not only because of their undeniable skills, but because of what they did rapresent. Louis was pictured as the guy who defeated the nazi. Alž as the guy who refused to go to Vietnam, who fought for civil rights (and for his trash-talk, too).

2) Skills I do not deny that Wlad's style is extremely effective, but regardless of the opposition he is neither spectacular nor a skilled technician. He doesn't dance like a butterfly (Alž), he does not he deliver spectacular combinations (Ala Tyson), doesn't have a trademark hook (Louis, Frazier) nor an amazing chin (Marciano, La Motta).
He relies on height, reach, a pawing jab and a solid right hand. Minimalistic, effective, but not "complete" or "spectacular". People look at these things, for boxing is a sport, an entertainment. And it is after all people who made Alž "the greatest", his fame as much as his victories.


3) Opposition Another factor to consider. The rumble in the jungle or the thriller in Manila were followed not only because of Alž, but also because of his opponents. Close matches among the best fighters of the time, that is what made that era memorable. Nobody would remember these fights if the outcome was as predictable as most of Wlad's bouts.


All my respect to Wlad though. It is impressive how he can use his (no offence)rather limited set of skills in such an effective fashion. And even though I do not deny the general weakness of the HW division, I also think that most of Wlad's opponents look worse than they normally would because of his style.


Just my two cents!
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#48
Old 10-05-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
If your speaking to me I watched, very good!! Giving respect for what they've accomplished is one thing recognizing them or one as a "great fighter" is another! I'm not a "fan" or "hater" I'm a retired boxing manager, trainer, cornerman and gym owner so my thoughts come from actual experiences not watching fights and comparing fights and fighters. I know methods and techniques and most fans don't!! They only now how to compare records or common opponents, that doesn't cut it when evaluating talents!! Sorry! Ray.

I agree with your opinion about Wlad,great accomplishments, but even I (a simple fan, with an average knowledge of the game) cannot fail to notice his awkwardness in certain (many?)situations.

I can see him being slow handed, slow footed, predictable in most cases (pawing jab+right hand), limited head movement. His defense seems to rely on his height and , to an extent, on shifting his weight on the rear foot.

Can you point out other flaws?. How do you rate his boxing skills, what is he good at?.

And how can he be so successful, in spite of his limited set of boxing skills?.
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#49
Old 10-05-2012, 10:53 AM
Ray Corso
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In fairness to both Bros. they use what they have!!! They have height and have learned to use it for both offense and defense, as they should. BUT! That being said they don't use their reach effectly to step into their opponents as often as they COULD!
One of the reasons they don't move forward as often as they could is their balance, they are slow footed to a fault. Once they do make a move their hands are far out in front of their feet. It looks like no one has taught them to Fence, move forward with the lead foot being pushed by the back foot but never having the back foot be equal or pass the lead foot (step over) they do a terrible job at this!
As for the leaning away (ala Ali) at 6'6" they can do it because their opponents they fight never apply pressure. I would want them (Bros)to lean back if I had a fighter against them but the fighter needs to persue them. You can't have your weight to far forward or backward if your in with quality fighters who push the issue!! The Brothers are bigger and stronger than the current opposition and their smart enough to use their advantages but that doesn't make them great fighters it makes them opportunistic and smart!
Wlad has learned to gauge his reach against his opponents in the first round. He extends the left and gauges distance ala Kronk fighters do! Manny wanted a better left shoulder (pointed at the opponent) and BE TALL, Fence the guy untill you see your openings then pull the trigger! In his losses he was tentative and in the big boys division the most talented doesn't always win!!

I think they're accomplished and have learned their lessons well, I think they could be alot better if they had more experienced trainers (manny not included) that could teach more technique as opposed to amatuer styled (upright Euro style) boxing! They need alot of movement work to gain more flexabilty but at their age theres not much chance of gaining that mobility!
I'm not a Klitsko Hater......I don't hate any fighters, if they cheat I dismiss them from conversation but hate is a strong word when your at a distance and don't have real honest facts. Fans hate.......its their defensive nature to protect their favorites, I guess! HA! Wlad has become a good fighter who has come back from defeats with desire and the willingness to succeed but he's NOT a great fighter. Ray.
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#50
Old 10-06-2012, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
In fairness to both Bros. they use what they have!!! They have height and have learned to use it for both offense and defense, as they should. BUT! That being said they don't use their reach effectly to step into their opponents as often as they COULD!
One of the reasons they don't move forward as often as they could is their balance, they are slow footed to a fault. Once they do make a move their hands are far out in front of their feet. It looks like no one has taught them to Fence, move forward with the lead foot being pushed by the back foot but never having the back foot be equal or pass the lead foot (step over) they do a terrible job at this!
As for the leaning away (ala Ali) at 6'6" they can do it because their opponents they fight never apply pressure. I would want them (Bros)to lean back if I had a fighter against them but the fighter needs to persue them. You can't have your weight to far forward or backward if your in with quality fighters who push the issue!! The Brothers are bigger and stronger than the current opposition and their smart enough to use their advantages but that doesn't make them great fighters it makes them opportunistic and smart!
Wlad has learned to gauge his reach against his opponents in the first round. He extends the left and gauges distance ala Kronk fighters do! Manny wanted a better left shoulder (pointed at the opponent) and BE TALL, Fence the guy untill you see your openings then pull the trigger! In his losses he was tentative and in the big boys division the most talented doesn't always win!!

I think they're accomplished and have learned their lessons well, I think they could be alot better if they had more experienced trainers (manny not included) that could teach more technique as opposed to amatuer styled (upright Euro style) boxing! They need alot of movement work to gain more flexabilty but at their age theres not much chance of gaining that mobility!
I'm not a Klitsko Hater......I don't hate any fighters, if they cheat I dismiss them from conversation but hate is a strong word when your at a distance and don't have real honest facts. Fans hate.......its their defensive nature to protect their favorites, I guess! HA! Wlad has become a good fighter who has come back from defeats with desire and the willingness to succeed but he's NOT a great fighter. Ray.


Thank you so much for the technical insight!,
that is the part of the game that intrigues me the most.

Indeed, hate is a strong word, how can you hate somebody you don't even know?. Everybody has favorites and least favorites.
To be honest the bros seem to be nice guys outside of the ring, and dedicated professionals considering that most fighters are a shadow of themselves at their age.
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