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#21
Old 09-25-2012, 09:03 AM
nachorjj
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Hagler knock Sergio out early. Easy fight for Marvin
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#22
Old 09-25-2012, 12:09 PM
joseph5620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyST
Quote:

Originally Posted by F l i c k e r

lol you guys are interesting.

i say it depends on sergio's mood. if he respects him or wants to try and hurt him.

the former; sergio UD/SDs him.
the latter; hagler wins likely by knockout.

if sergio's mind is right, he will SRL hagler.



You're the interesting one here methinks. Sergio SRLs Hagler? We are talking about a prime Hagler here. When boxing, Sergio is still easier to hit, and hurt, than Leonard was when he chose to box. Very, very different.

Hagler in his prime was also a highly skilled southpaw that could counter Sergio very well.

Hagler beats him. We are getting so overexcited about fighters today. Imagine if Hagler was around as lineal MW champ like Hagler. After the 2nd year of Sergio's 'reign' we are proclaiming him a HOFer, Hagler beating great. Imagine today if Hagler had cleaned out the division, made lots of defenses and reigned supreme for nearly a decade? We'd be proclaiming him the GOAT.

Anyway, enough babble. Hagler's jab was much better than Sergio's and much harder. It would beat Sergio's and that would be a large part of who won the rest. Hagler isn't going to wait on the inside, and he's much stronger and rougher and would break him down every time Sergio rests. He doesn't wait on the outside, nor is he some slow plodder that just walks forward. He's more versatile than Sergio.

Flicker would probably say Hagler beats Ali if he were fighting today.
I agree completely . I suspect when people say. "SRL" Hagler it's because that's the only fight of Hagler's they have ever seen. Along with Hagler-Hearns. That's why you see so many here ridiculously depicting Hagler as a crude one dimensional slugger .



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#23
Old 09-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Ray Corso
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Now Matrinez is a "great fighter"? really who did he beat to become a great fighter?
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#24
Old 09-25-2012, 01:36 PM
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Hagler and clearly. He'd stop Sergio too, probably late after patiently and methodically breaking his mobile foe down....
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#25
Old 09-25-2012, 03:07 PM
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Hagler ****ing dominates him and its not up for debate
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#26
Old 09-25-2012, 04:32 PM
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Sergio isn't a totally complete fighter. He takes breaks, has lapses of concentration, and holes in his defense. I'd expect Hagler to take over in the middle rounds and get at worst a majority decision, at best a TKO.

With that said, Sergio would be about 50/50 against the Hagler that SRL fought assuming the ring were big and Hagler made the same tactical mistakes. I see no reason at all to validate saying that version of SRL was better than Martinez. He flat out wasn't and squeaking by Hagler was the last significant thing he ever did. Martinez's resume s hits all over Leonard's post-layoff rsume, or even Leonard's 154 and up resume.
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#27
Old 09-25-2012, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck View Post
Sergio isn't a totally complete fighter. He takes breaks, has lapses of concentration, and holes in his defense. I'd expect Hagler to take over in the middle rounds and get at worst a majority decision, at best a TKO.

With that said, Sergio would be about 50/50 against the Hagler that SRL fought assuming the ring were big and Hagler made the same tactical mistakes. I see no reason at all to validate saying that version of SRL was better than Martinez. He flat out wasn't and squeaking by Hagler was the last significant thing he ever did. Martinez's resume s hits all over Leonard's post-layoff rsume, or even Leonard's 154 and up resume.
Really? I'm not sure I agree at all. The Hagler win alone is better than anything Martinez has done. Despite hagler being older and slower, he was still unbeaten for a decade and lineal champ. It would be the same as getting a win over Bernard Hopkins before he lost to Jermain Taylor. You also have long time champ Ayub Kalule who was an excellent champ and more than equal to the 'champs' Martiniez fought like Dzinziruk and Chavez.

You also have Donny Lalonde at 168. Again, he is the equal of someone like Chavez. Much bigger than Leonard, much younger, a new champ with a few defenses.

So, you have Ayub Kalule: undefeated 154 pound champ, 5 defenses.
Marvin Hagler: undefeated as champ, undefeated in over a decade, undisputed, lineal king with 13 defenses over 7 years. Huge favourite.
Donny Lalonde: WBC 175 pound champ, much younger and bigger.
Roberto Duran: current WBC MW champion.

That's 4 current champs spanning 154 to 175, two ATG HOFers, one excellent champ and one hyped young champ.

Martinez has Paul Wiliams: top ten contender, former wbo 147 champ, lost after 1 defense before moving up to 154/160.
Kelly Pavlik: Current MW champion, 3 defenses in between loss to former MW king Hopkins.
Sergei Dzinziruk: current undefeated wbo 154 champ moving up to 160.
Barker/Macklin: two top ten contenders.
Chavez: WBC champion after Sergio stripped of title. Never fought a current or former champion before Martinez.

In fact, not only is Leonard's better, I think it's much better. I think a more likely equivalent scenario for Martinez would be something like him beating Dzinziruk at 154 for his title, moving up and beating MW king Hopkins (before he lost to Taylor) then moving up again and beating the hyped Jean Pascal or other similar new 175 pound champion at a 168 catch weight, then beating the MW champion version of Oscar (the one that fought Sturm). He's the only guy I could think of to also win at 135 and 160 like Duran.

That's two legends and HOFers, one solid champ in Dzinziruk and one hyped champ in Pascal (though even he wasn't really hyped like Lalonde: Lalonde was more like that young guy at 160 that got beat by Rubio) across 154 to 168. Imagine if Martinez had beaten those guys at those weights instead of Williams, macklin and Barker (contenders), Dzinziruk, Pavlik and Chavez (champions, except for Dzinziruk who was champ at 154 only) all at 160?

We'd be raving about him like nothing else. Remember the hype that Taylor had after beating Hopkins. Well, imagine if he'd also beaten these other guys instead of just getting knocked out?

Last edited by BennyST; 09-25-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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#28
Old 09-25-2012, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
Now Matrinez is a "great fighter"? really who did he beat to become a great fighter?
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I didn't feel the need to be wordy.

Implying Martinez style means that he isn't exciting, is frankly stupid.

He's easily one of the most exciting fighters today.

Maybe you could explain what about Martinez' style makes him such a bore?
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#29
Old 09-26-2012, 12:54 AM
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Really? I'm not sure I agree at all. The Hagler win alone is better than anything Martinez has done. Despite hagler being older and slower, he was still unbeaten for a decade and lineal champ. It would be the same as getting a win over Bernard Hopkins before he lost to Jermain Taylor. You also have long time champ Ayub Kalule who was an excellent champ and more than equal to the 'champs' Martiniez fought like Dzinziruk and Chavez.

You also have Donny Lalonde at 168. Again, he is the equal of someone like Chavez. Much bigger than Leonard, much younger, a new champ with a few defenses.

So, you have Ayub Kalule: undefeated 154 pound champ, 5 defenses.
Marvin Hagler: undefeated as champ, undefeated in over a decade, undisputed, lineal king with 13 defenses over 7 years. Huge favourite.
Donny Lalonde: WBC 175 pound champ, much younger and bigger.
Roberto Duran: current WBC MW champion.

That's 4 current champs spanning 154 to 175, two ATG HOFers, one excellent champ and one hyped young champ.

Martinez has Paul Wiliams: top ten contender, former wbo 147 champ, lost after 1 defense before moving up to 154/160.
Kelly Pavlik: Current MW champion, 3 defenses in between loss to former MW king Hopkins.
Sergei Dzinziruk: current undefeated wbo 154 champ moving up to 160.
Barker/Macklin: two top ten contenders.
Chavez: WBC champion after Sergio stripped of title. Never fought a current or former champion before Martinez.

In fact, not only is Leonard's better, I think it's much better. I think a more likely equivalent scenario for Martinez would be something like him beating Dzinziruk at 154 for his title, moving up and beating MW king Hopkins (before he lost to Taylor) then moving up again and beating the hyped Jean Pascal or other similar new 175 pound champion at a 168 catch weight, then beating the MW champion version of Oscar (the one that fought Sturm). He's the only guy I could think of to also win at 135 and 160 like Duran.

That's two legends and HOFers, one solid champ in Dzinziruk and one hyped champ in Pascal (though even he wasn't really hyped like Lalonde: Lalonde was more like that young guy at 160 that got beat by Rubio) across 154 to 168. Imagine if Martinez had beaten those guys at those weights instead of Williams, macklin and Barker (contenders), Dzinziruk, Pavlik and Chavez (champions, except for Dzinziruk who was champ at 154 only) all at 160?

We'd be raving about him like nothing else. Remember the hype that Taylor had after beating Hopkins. Well, imagine if he'd also beaten these other guys instead of just getting knocked out?
That's a nice picture you painted, but it's not reality.

1. The Hagler win is the best between the two fighters, but it was razor thin and a fading version of Hagler. Martinez managed to ice a prime Williams, who was bottom of the top 10 pfp, the best 154 pounder, and had never been close to stopped (you're shorting Williams badly). He also decisively beat Pavlik who was the lineal middle champ, near prime, and had/has never lost at 160 other than to Serge. Those two wins collectively are at minimum equal to the Hagler win, and imo better. Not just because of who he beat, but how he did it.

2. Other than that, Martinez has a string of wins against decent contenders at 154 and the excellent performance against Dzinzurik (sp?). Leonard has Lalonde, who was a weak champ and starved....We'll say he cancels of Chavez. And he's got 168 Duran, who sucked at that age and weight (your description of him is funny tho, calling him a legend and HOFer like that tells the story...yeah I know he beat Barkley, the one guy who had status without being able to box well). Other than that, he lost to Hearns and got dominated by Norris, who was an underdog going in if you're writing off Leonard as past it.

So Martinez has it compared to post-layoff Leonard pretty easily.

If you add in Kalule it gets closer, but Martinez still has Cintron, Bunema, Macklin, Dzinzurik, and the respectable loss to Williams to fall back on...he's still got it.
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#30
Old 09-26-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck View Post
That's a nice picture you painted, but it's not reality.

1. The Hagler win is the best between the two fighters, but it was razor thin and a fading version of Hagler. Martinez managed to ice a prime Williams, who was bottom of the top 10 pfp, the best 154 pounder, and had never been close to stopped (you're shorting Williams badly). He also decisively beat Pavlik who was the lineal middle champ, near prime, and had/has never lost at 160 other than to Serge. Those two wins collectively are at minimum equal to the Hagler win, and imo better. Not just because of who he beat, but how he did it.

2. Other than that, Martinez has a string of wins against decent contenders at 154 and the excellent performance against Dzinzurik (sp?). Leonard has Lalonde, who was a weak champ and starved....We'll say he cancels of Chavez. And he's got 168 Duran, who sucked at that age and weight (your description of him is funny tho, calling him a legend and HOFer like that tells the story...yeah I know he beat Barkley, the one guy who had status without being able to box well). Other than that, he lost to Hearns and got dominated by Norris, who was an underdog going in if you're writing off Leonard as past it.

So Martinez has it compared to post-layoff Leonard pretty easily.

If you add in Kalule it gets closer, but Martinez still has Cintron, Bunema, Macklin, Dzinzurik, and the respectable loss to Williams to fall back on...he's still got it.
Fair enough.
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