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#111
Old 09-14-2012, 10:42 PM
Scott9945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
If Chavez had quit against Randall he would not have won the fight...
Did you actually watch the fight, or did you just look it up on boxrec? Everybody knows that Chavez quit to get a cheap win over a difficult opponent. Just another case of the WBC protecting a Mexican fighter.
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#112
Old 09-15-2012, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
If Chavez had quit against Randall he would not have won the fight...
Of course, how silly of me, ignore the rest of my posts then I was obviously wrong.

You got me.
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#113
Old 09-15-2012, 10:31 AM
SBleeder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
If Chavez had quit against Randall he would not have won the fight...
Under the rules of that particular bout... yes, he would have, and did. His "no mas" sent the fight to the cards.
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#114
Old 09-15-2012, 01:24 PM
BennyST
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Originally Posted by KO'er View Post
But did Armstrong win the flyweight title? Out of the titles I listed, there was (apart from Bantamweight) no "super" or "junior" before it.

More skilled? How do you know this? Infinitely better resume? How so? Pacman has a great resume. Tell me how can a fighter have an "infinitely better resume" than a fighter who knocked out flyweight, (super) bantamweight, featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titilists? (not too mention beating a 20lbs heavier Margarito.)

Plus with all this fuss about belts, Pacman has been #1 P4P in some people's list for a good while. It doesn't take a genius to know that if a prime Pacman stayed at a weighed division for a couple of years (and trust me, a couple of years would be needed) he would have unified all the belts cos he is an ATG, from Flyweight up to Welterweight. (apart from Mayweather's belts cos they'll never meet.)

Pacman was too busy moving up in weight to stay at a division for too long.

People tend to get nostalgic about times past. If Pacquiao and Armstrong where to meet, Pacman would be better because of the vitamins, protein shakes, training methods, etc. Look at the swimmers, 100M runners and the other athletes, sports evolve over time the sports people get better over time.

Imagine a 12 rounder between Manny and Armstrong, Manny could stay fresh and fight at full pace for 12 rounds while Armstrong would tire fighting at Manny's pace. Not to mention Pacman fighting only twice a year, Armstrong often fought 3 times a month. As Manny Steward said in the mid rounds while Pacman was domination Margarito, "he is a machine." Talent plays a part, but those vitamins, protein shakes, training techniques (evolved since Armstrong's time) and other devices (oxygen tanks, etc) played a part in Manny being as good as he is. (and was with Margarito.)
Just one question to start with: how would he have unified all the belts from flyweight when 1; he couldn't even make the weight and 2; he lost his one title in his first defence by brutal KO?

As to the weight: he moved up quickly not because he wanted to but because he had absolutely no choice. He missed weight, got knocked out twice, and outgrew every lower division with incredible rapidity. He skipped over two more divisions from flyweight because he couldn't make the weight at any of them. In much earlier eras he would never have been making any of those weights he was able to, such as flyweight through to super bantam, because he was much too big and his fight weight was very high.

For instance, in Armstrongs era, Pac would not have been fighting Marquez, Morales and Barrera at 122-130 while weighing in as a welterweight. He would have been fighting at welterweight because thats what he weighed. In those eras Pac would have been a welterweight or Lightweight (if lucky) for much of his career. You couldn't cut weight like now then spend the next day rehydrating and having fluids pumped into you.

His struggle with weight all through his early career is very well documented. Just like Chavez Jr today would never have been able to make 160 and fight at middleweight in the 50's/60's, Pac wouldn't have fought at most of the divisions he fought at.

One other thing: you seem to take winning a title today as being on par with winning a title 50 years ago? There are 5 different titles to get in each division and double the divisions today, not counting the minor ones now. There are also less registered pros today and less gyms in America than there used to be in new York alone in the 50's. That's 5x each divisions opposition is watered down to win a title today as opposed to moving through a top ten composed of all the best of each governing body today as it used to be. Don't forget that fighters like David Diaz, Joshua clottey and those of a similar ilk would never have been considered champs back then. They would have just been somewhere in the lower half of the top ten contenders.

The last two paragraphs are utterly absurd. First of all, how do you explain fights like Ali/Frazier, Leonard/Duran, Jofre/Harada, Pep/Saddler, and a thousand other fights and fighters who fought with as much and more intensity and ferocity over longer fights than Pac? How do you explain the clear gulf in skill between fighters and opponents of Pac (not to mention himself in some cases) to fighters of many decades ago with clear film?

If this evolution you speak of was true, why was he ever fighting someone as slow and unskilled as Margarito? How was Margarito ever able to even win fights against better athletes for that matter?

Unlike timed sports, boxing doesn't involve racing against a clock and you aren't relying on primitive skills such as thick head, solid chin, fighting heart and aggression etc. No other sport involves being punched in the face and trying to damage someone else to 'win'. Its a little different to swimming laps wouldnt you say? The pool isnt going to start trying to drown you while you attempt to beat a time. Margarito would be a hopeless athlete, but today he is a world champ boxer. That alone should shut you about spouting that theory.

If not, how about this: how was it that Duran, in the late 90's nearly 50 years old, way past his prime and so far above his natural weight as to be simply fat and out of shape, was not only able to compete with, but actually beat a 30 year old, prime former world middleweight champion when Duran was best in the 60's and 70's From 118 to 135 pounds? Shouldn't this evolution have enabled a much bigger, younger, stronger, more prime fighter to utterly destroy a tiny, fat old guy who was best many decades before him? Why do fighters like Toney and Hopkins call themselves old school fighters? Why are they called two of the most savvy, ring intelligent fighters in modern boxing history and why is it that both talk about having learned their 'forgotten' craft from fighters like Moore, Charles, Walcott etc?

Why is it that there are still fighters today with little defence, no stamina, poor technique, no power, slow punches, bad footwork, etc etc etc when they should all have evolved from fighters like Pep, Robinson, Charles, Armstrong, Duran, Monzon, etc?

Last edited by BennyST; 09-15-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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