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#21
Old 09-01-2012, 01:21 AM
Capaedia
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
So many people say Liston was over-the-hill when he fought Ali. But, does that not downplay Muhammad a bit being that was his most impressive prime win?! Besides, if Sonny was really past it why did all the experts expect him to win the first fight easily...
Sonny was the favourite because Sonny had just demolished the number 2 heavyweight twice, in dominant fashion. Ali hadn't done anything that made them think he could beat Liston.

They thought that he didn't have the chin or bravery to beat Liston, can't really blame them seeing as how close Cooper came to knocking him out the very fight before. They were wrong it turns out.

A past prime Liston is still a great win. In fact, very few heavyweights have a better win than that.
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#22
Old 09-01-2012, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
So many people say Liston was over-the-hill when he fought Ali. But, does that not downplay Muhammad a bit being that was his most impressive prime win?! Besides, if Sonny was really past it why did all the experts expect him to win the first fight easily...
The point is to get it right, not to add or subtract from somebody's win. We're not here to throw a party for people, we're here to get at the truth as accurately as we can.

Besides, if Tyson was really past-it why did all the experts expect him to beat Holyfield so easily. See how ridiculous that assertion is?

Poet
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#23
Old 09-01-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by poet682006 View Post
The point is to get it right, not to add or subtract from somebody's win. We're not here to throw a party for people, we're here to get at the truth as accurately as we can.

Besides, if Tyson was really past-it why did all the experts expect him to beat Holyfield so easily. See how ridiculous that assertion is?

Poet
I don't know quite what you mean by that. The situations between Liston and Tyson were very different. Tyson had been away for several years and obviously didn't have the right preperation for Holyfield. But, in retrospect his losing was more to do with ring-rust and the effect of head-butts. Liston was an active fighter who was supposed to be at the top of his game when he lost to Ali.
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#24
Old 09-01-2012, 06:38 PM
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I guess I'm the only one to say no. Liston has neither the quality championship wins or the quantity of championship wins to be a top 10 hwt all time. Just my opinion............
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#25
Old 09-01-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
I don't know quite what you mean by that. The situations between Liston and Tyson were very different. Tyson had been away for several years and obviously didn't have the right preperation for Holyfield. But, in retrospect his losing was more to do with ring-rust and the effect of head-butts. Liston was an active fighter who was supposed to be at the top of his game when he lost to Ali.
Completely missing the point. You asserted that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
Besides, if Sonny was really past it why did all the experts expect him to win the first fight easily...
My point is that just because the experts expect you to win easily doesn't mean you aren't past-it. Tyson was past it against Holyfield but the experts still expected him to win easily. He didn't. He got KTFO.

In Liston's case, he was in his late 30s possibly even as old as 40 with a lot of mileage on his tires. The vast majority of fighters are past-it by their early 30s and practically all of them are past-it by their mid 30s. So yes, Liston was past-it by any reasonable standard that you use.

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#26
Old 09-01-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxing Bob View Post
I guess I'm the only one to say no. Liston has neither the quality championship wins or the quantity of championship wins to be a top 10 hwt all time. Just my opinion............
Fighters are judged by their entire prime-resume not just their title reigns.

Poet
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#27
Old 09-01-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
I don't know quite what you mean by that. The situations between Liston and Tyson were very different. Tyson had been away for several years and obviously didn't have the right preperation for Holyfield. But, in retrospect his losing was more to do with ring-rust and the effect of head-butts. Liston was an active fighter who was supposed to be at the top of his game when he lost to Ali.
You can never underestimate the Tyson apologists. Tyson had FOUR fights off his layoff before he fought Evander. That's twice as many as Ali had before he fought Joe Frazier. The headbutts and layoffs are just excuses for the fact that Holyfield was simply a better fighter than Mike, at least H2H he was.
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#28
Old 09-02-2012, 12:41 AM
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You can never underestimate the Tyson apologists. Tyson had FOUR fights off his layoff before he fought Evander. That's twice as many as Ali had before he fought Joe Frazier. The headbutts and layoffs are just excuses for the fact that Holyfield was simply a better fighter than Mike, at least H2H he was.
How laughable is this? Tyson fought a total of a little over SEVEN rounds in over five years. One of which was a Peter McNeely fight. Are you kidding me?? In that same duration how many rounds did Holyfield have in with top opposition????? Ali was at least allowed to have boxing training during his shorter layoff and he still looked kinda horrid in Frazier 1...
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#29
Old 09-02-2012, 12:55 AM
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Most people only will remember Liston for getting beat by Ali twice.
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#30
Old 09-02-2012, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
How laughable is this? Tyson fought a total of a little over SEVEN rounds in over five years. One of which was a Peter McNeely fight. Are you kidding me?? In that same duration how many rounds did Holyfield have in with top opposition????? Ali was at least allowed to have boxing training during his shorter layoff and he still looked kinda horrid in Frazier 1...
Tyson had four full training camps too. How much time does he need before he's ready for an ex-champion who appeared to be on his way out? These excuses are pitiful. Of course your the same person who said that Tyson wasn't well managed while making more money than any fighter in history. Now that is laughable.

Oh, and the "kinda horrid" Ali that fought Frazier in 1971 would have won against every single opponent that Tyson ever beat. Seriously.
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