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#21
Old 08-25-2012, 07:44 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
My 'best claim' is subjective.....its true. But my definition of 'linear' champ is spot on. Linear comes from line, in this case it is the true championship line of who beat who....to stake the claim. There have been times where the next champion after a retirement (Tunney, Marciano, Lewis) has to be considered linear despite never beating the previous champion.
Which is why when the "Lineal Champion" retires, the #1 fights the #2 to determine the new Lineal Champion.

Which, is why TBear said there hasn't been a Lineal Champion since Lennox Lewis because the Klitschko's won't fight each other and have been #1 and #2 since 2004 onwards.

However, some say Wladimir Klitschko gained the Lineal Championship when he beat Chagaev who was ranked #3.

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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Vitali has by far the best claim. As I've said in a previous post, Wlad has no rightful claim; when Vitali met Lewis Wlad was recovering from a stoppage loss to Sanders and he had another stoppage loss a few fights later. Oh and guess who beat Sanders for the title? Vitali. He clearly has the best claim.
That was 9 years ago.

Does Vitali Klitschko's 4 year retirement not count? Does he still have claimed to the Lineage (That he never won) after 4 years without fighting?

Going by the logic you're using on H2H match ups. Wlad has a "Even better better" claim than Vitali for eternity because Vitali quit on his stool against Chris Byrd and then in Byrds very next fight he got dominated by guess who? Wladimir Klitshcko.

Flawed logic.

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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Vitali's performance against Lewis says it all. That was no stoppage loss other than as a boxrec statistic. It was a cut and the guy ahead on points was a touch unlucky. There was an outcry for a rematch........and despite the obvious money on the table Lewis wisely chose to retire.
Vitali's loss to Lennox Lewis was 9 years ago. That performance has nothing to do with today and what unfolded after that day.

And it was absolutely a stoppage loss. He got cut, but a punch, and rightfully stopped. That is a clear, cut and dry loss.

What's unlucky about being punched in the face and severely cut? This is Boxing, you know.

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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Who would you say has best claim to the linear championship if not Vitali?
Wladimir Klitschko, obviously.

Vitali Klitschko has done nothing but feast on unranked fighters since coming out of retirement whilst Wlad has pretty much cleaned out all the ranked fighters at HW.

Last edited by IronDanHamza; 08-25-2012 at 07:53 PM.
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#22
Old 08-25-2012, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Yes, it was a 6 Round TKO.



Flawed logic if I ever saw it.

Vitali has a "better claim" to the Lineal Championship on the basis he performed well in a losing effort to the Lineal Champion at that time? Which was in 9 years ago, by the way.



He certainly does. Certainly more than Vitali Klitschko has in 2012.



And? What relevance does this have? This was like a decade ago. Things change.

Vitali hasn't lost since.........He also retired for 4 years. Is Vitali Klitchko the Lineal Champion until the day he actually retires for good? Based on losing a Lineal Champion?

Vitali Klitschko has done NOTHING to be considered the Lineal Champion since he came out of retirement. Literally, nothing.

Wlad has beaten better fighters, more ranked fighters, and if anyone is the Lineal Champion at HW right now, It's Wladimir Klitschko and no one else.

What has nine years got to do with it? Vitali has been undefeated for those nine years. And if you think the loss to Lewis was anything more than it looks on film, fair enough.

If thats the way you see it fella, no hard feelings. I personally think Vitali's claim is better.

He hasn't lost since Lewis, Wlad has. Vitali has beaten the guy who beat Wlad and he won the WBC title doing it. He did a better job on Sam Peter too.

As for Vitali's retirement affecting his claim. I see your angle and you might have many supporters there.

But I'll leave you with a thought:

When did Frazier become linear champ? When Ali was forced into retirement in 1967 or when they met in 1971?

I'll say 1971......four years later!

Incidentally, I've always rated Vitali over Wlad. If they were to meet my money would be on big brother. He is the superior of the two to my eyes. If you really feel that Wlad should be seen as the better fighter thats your call.
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#23
Old 08-25-2012, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Which is why when the "Lineal Champion" retires, the #1 fights the #2 to determine the new Lineal Champion.

Which, is why TBear said there hasn't been a Lineal Champion since Lennox Lewis because the Klitschko's won't fight each other and have been #1 and #2 since 2004 onwards.

However, some say Wladimir Klitschko gained the Lineal Championship when he beat Chagaev who was ranked #3.



That was 9 years ago.

Does Vitali Klitschko's 4 year retirement not count? Does he still have claimed to the Lineage (That he never won) after 4 years without fighting?

Going by the logic you're using on H2H match ups. Wlad has a "Even better better" claim than Vitali for eternity because Vitali quit on his stool against Chris Byrd and then in Byrds very next fight he got dominated by guess who? Wladimir Klitshcko.
Flawed logic.



Vitali's loss to Lennox Lewis was 9 years ago. That performance has nothing to do with today and what unfolded after that day.

And it was absolutely a stoppage loss. He got cut, but a punch, and rightfully stopped. That is a clear, cut and dry loss.

What's unlucky about being punched in the face and severely cut? This is Boxing, you know.



Wladimir Klitschko, obviously.

Vitali Klitschko has done nothing but feast on unranked fighters since coming out of retirement whilst Wlad has pretty much cleaned out all the ranked fighters at HW.


This happened three years before the Vitali vs Lewis fight. It has no relevance to the linear title. The Sanders fights do, they happened in 2003 & 2004.
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#24
Old 08-25-2012, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
This happened three years before the Vitali vs Lewis fight. It has no relevance to the linear title. The Sanders fights do, they happened in 2003 & 2004.
Well the Klitshcko-Lewis fight happened 9 years ago and a year before he retired for 4 years.

None of these fights have any relevance to who the Lineal Champion is now which was the point I was making or more over pointing out your immensely flawed point as to why Vitali Klitschko has the "best claim" to the Lineage.

Vitali Klitschko has NO claim to the Lineage today. None. What so ever.
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#25
Old 08-25-2012, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiozzo View Post
some of you guys don't know how the lineage works

when the lineal title is lost (example Lewis retiring), the lineage can be re-established if the no. 1 and no.2 ranked fighters, and in some instances, the no. 1 and no.3, fight

that is why Wlad K. is the lineal champion since he beat Chagaev, or that Pascal became lineal champ by beating Dawson

see this link for more
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/pastchp.htm
1 and 2?? Ranked by who, WBC? IBF? You? Me? Ring? This way everybody can be lineal.

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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
I'm not too sure that you know what the linear championship is. George Foreman and then Shannon Briggs were the linear champions in 1997 and then 1998 before Lewis. They were certainly not the 'uncontested, undisputed' champions. Just the men who beat the men who beat the men.....thats what the linear title is. They certainly weren't the best heavyweights in the world by any stretch at that time.

I don't think Wlad has a shout at the linear championship. Vitali has the best claim and thats the way I see it. Vitali's claim is at least as good as Schmelling or Patterson......Lewis chose not to rematch Vitali and Vitali was ahead on points at the time of the cuts stoppage. Its not as good as an actual win, but its as close as its going to get.

If Wlad wants a shout at the closest thing to the linear title he can call out his brother. That task should not be down to Vitali.
Foreman beat Moorer, Moorer beat Holyfield, Holyfield beat.... Somewhere along the "Line" the title was undisputed and uncontested.

The idea of linear(line) has to do exactly with "the man who beat the man who beat the man who beat..."
When the string is broken by retirement. It is not just handed out to the most deserving or the best choice, it is not an "ABC title". It is gained only when there is no dispute about who is champion. When some one completely and undisputely holds all titles at a certain weight. And then the man that beats him, and the man that beats him etc.

Last edited by TBear; 08-25-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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#26
Old 08-25-2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Well the Klitshcko-Lewis fight happened 9 years ago and a year before he retired for 4 years.

None of these fights have any relevance to who the Lineal Champion is now which was the point I was making or more over pointing out your immensely flawed point as to why Vitali Klitschko has the "best claim" to the Lineage.

Vitali Klitschko has NO claim to the Lineage today. None. What so ever.
I suppose neither has a claim till Lewis comes back then.......ha ha

However, Lewis vacated the belts. Vitali won the most prestigious belt (the WBC) by beating the man who had just knocked out Wlad. Thats as good as it gets for me.

As I've said before you may have supporters in your view that Vitali's 'forced' injury retirement has some bearing on things. I accept that.
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#27
Old 08-25-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TBear View Post
1 and 2?? Ranked by who, WBC? IBF? You? Me? Ring? This way everybody can be lineal.



Foreman beat Moorer, Moorer beat Holyfield, Holyfield beat.... Somewhere along the "Line" the title was undisputed and uncontested.

The idea of linear(line) has to do exactly with "the man who beat the man who beat the man who beat..."
When the string is broken by retirement. It is not just handed out to the most deserving or the best choice, it is not an "ABC title". It is gained only when their is no dispute about who is champion. When some one completely and undisputely holds all titles at a certain weight. And then the man that beats him, and the man that beats him etc.
In that case Gene Tunney is still linear heavyweight champ then. Only joking!

Oh well........

To be honest, as the previous posts seem to indicate......it appears that the heavyweight linear title is pretty much in dispute. Perhaps it can be started again when one champion has the four major belts and until then....we're waiting.

Last edited by Sugarj; 08-25-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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#28
Old 08-25-2012, 08:25 PM
IronDanHamza
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I suppose neither has a claim till Lewis comes back then.......ha ha

However, Lewis vacated the belts. Vitali won the most prestigious belt (the WBC) by beating the man who had just knocked out Wlad. Thats as good as it gets for me.

As I've said before you may have supporters in your view that Vitali's 'forced' injury retirement has some bearing on things. I accept that.
How is the WBC is the most prestigous belt? What makes the WBC any better than any other of the sh*tty belts they have today? That's nonsense.

Whether it has a bearing on things or not, it's a fact he retired for 4 years.

He can't come back after 4 years and have some sort of claim to a Lineage that he didn't even win. On the basis that he fought well in a losing effort.

And, since he returned for his retirement he has done nothing to even come close to even uttering the idea of claiming the Lineage.

If anyone has, it's Wladimir Klitshcko, who has been cleaning out the divison, fighting the better fighters, ranked fighters for multiple years now.
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#29
Old 08-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
To be honest, as the previous posts seem to indicate......it appears that the heavyweight linear title is pretty much in dispute. Perhaps it can be started again when one champion has the four major belts and until then....we're waiting.
That's exactly what TBear said in his initial post.
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#30
Old 08-25-2012, 08:32 PM
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How is the WBC is the most prestigous belt? What makes the WBC any better than any other of the sh*tty belts they have today? That's nonsense.

Whether it has a bearing on things or not, it's a fact he retired for 4 years.

He can't come back after 4 years and have some sort of claim to a Lineage that he didn't even win. On the basis that he fought well in a losing effort.

And, since he returned for his retirement he has done nothing to even come close to even uttering the idea of claiming the Lineage.

If anyone has, it's Wladimir Klitshcko, who has been cleaning out the divison, fighting the better fighters, ranked fighters for multiple years now.

Vitali as the number 2 ranked heavyweight contender beat the number 3contender (Sanders) after Lewis retired. It helps that Sanders only three months previously had knocked out Wlad. That is as good a claim to the linear title as Patterson when he beat Moore or Schmelling when he was Dq'd against Sharkey.

I've said in two previous posts that I see your point about the four year retirement (forced) affecting Vitali's claim. Though you chose not to answer my point about when Frazier might have became linear champion after Ali's forced retirement.
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