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#1
Old 11-17-2007, 12:35 PM
Burning Desire
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Default Was Rubin Carter Innocent Or Not ??

I see the film and i used to think he was innocent then about 1 year ago i started to read stuff on the web that has changed my mind quite alot i didn't like the things i was hearing on the web and it sounded like he wasn't innocent whats your opinion guys ?
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#2
Old 11-17-2007, 12:40 PM
dansweeney
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the movie was bias. he not only did it., but strangled the **** out of one of the women that was a legal advocate for him, that got him out of jail. the guy is a scumbag. after the movie i thought the same as you but doing research showed that he is guilty as hell
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#3
Old 11-17-2007, 01:05 PM
Hawk O'Connor
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Well, the thing that changed my standpoint was the way he treated those that worked so tirelessly to get his freedom. The aforementioned assault, the way he totally ignores the others is something I don't understand.

Having said that, it must be pointed out that Rubin Carter and his fellow accused were never found 'not guilty'. They were twice convicted but those convictions were set aside because a fair trial wasn't had in either instance.

From my understanding the New Jersey DA decided not to pursue it further because so much time had passed and withdrew the indictments against them. I haven't read that much regarding him other than his book, but I do know there is some glaring errors in there.

Like I said, what stands out to me is the way he treated those that worked so hard to help him. That alone, regardless of his guilt or innocence, lessens him in my eyes.
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#4
Old 11-17-2007, 01:14 PM
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I lived only a few blocks away from the bar that this happened. I also knew both John Artis and Rubin Carter a little.

Artis ran the hurdles for Central High School a few years before and I ran distance races for Passaic County Tech, both schools were located in Paterson at the time.

I met Carter several years before at the Riverside Oval in Paterson and he even pitched some softball. One time he and several of his friends went across the street of the ball field and went bowling. I followed him and he asked me to keep score, which I did. Also, when he pitched he used to let me sit with his team, he called me kid.

When I was in high school they let me go to the court house several times to do a report on the case. It was some long days, but I reported back what I saw and heard. They had several family members of the people that were killed on the stand. It was pretty sad and some of the items they showed were still full of blood.

I also knew Lt. Vince DeSimone some, and several of my friends knew him very well and they all said he was a honest cop and would never have done what the picture stated he did. Just read the site that Cal Deal has and you can make your own judgement.

Carter was on his way down as a boxer when this happened, just look at his record.

Cal Deal did a GREAT JOB in getting the material together and I read his site many times over the years.

http://www.graphicwitness.com/carter/index.html

I read just about everything about this case and I believe that both John Artis and Rubin Carter were and still are Guilty!
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#5
Old 11-18-2007, 11:26 PM
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First, the posts you guys wrote on this thread before me were very well stated.
After reading everything I could find on the subject, and looking at it with a totally open mind, which is sometimes hard to do, there is no doubt in my mind that if I was on a jury, I would have voted GUILTY with no qualms.

Carter could have used his quasi-celebrity status for some good, ie, to try and help others and give the good, positive spin mumbo-jumbo, but he even fumbled that! This is an example where the criminals who hurt and destroy others have way too many options and too much wiggle-room in the courts.
But, that is America. Land of the second chance.
The only ones who didn't get a second chance in the Carter case were the guys in the morgue....
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#6
Old 11-19-2007, 05:27 AM
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I too believed him to be innocent after reading a couple of books,listening to the Dylan song then about 10 years later watching the film.

But have since read on here and other places on the web damning evidence against him.

The vast majority all believe him to be guilty and that may well be.

But my username and sig will remain first of all because I ain't changing them for no-one and whether guilty or not it's a great story.

It's the man's mental strength that I really admired through his hard times in prison and even though he is more than likely a guilty man I can't help but admire this.

But I don't admire the murderer or look up to them, just his physical and mental strength and the story even if it isn't all true.
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#7
Old 08-19-2012, 08:57 PM
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Listening to the post-release treatment of those that helped him, I hate to say it, but he may be guilty.
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#8
Old 08-19-2012, 11:12 PM
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I don't think the post-release treatment is that relevant. It may be a red flag, but it is too simplistic. I can see it as a secondary consideration, but I wouldn't use it as a primary one. Just my take on it.

I don't know that much about the case, but I've read the website, and I'm going to read through it again. Call me the devil's advocate, but the situation of the courts in the 1960s is also an element; there is no question that many black men were falsely tried in those days (and continue to be, but much more so back then). After all, it was the unfair trials which eventually resulted in his being released. My position is basically that we will never know the truth (sorry to state the obvious), but I have trouble coming down on one side or the other.
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#9
Old 08-20-2012, 12:48 AM
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Seems like he was probably guilty, but yeah, hard to tell. Carter is nowhere near as heroic as the movie made him out to be. Didn't Carter also beat his wife? I remember hearing something about that when the movie came out. Anyway, here's a story I read recently which lists other movies "based on a true story" that also aren't completely true, as portrayed in their movies:

http://www.cracked.com/article_16478...ll****_p2.html

The Carter movie is number 1 on this list.
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#10
Old 08-20-2012, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodogoshi View Post
I don't think the post-release treatment is that relevant. It may be a red flag, but it is too simplistic. I can see it as a secondary consideration, but I wouldn't use it as a primary one. Just my take on it.

I don't know that much about the case, but I've read the website, and I'm going to read through it again. Call me the devil's advocate, but the situation of the courts in the 1960s is also an element; there is no question that many black men were falsely tried in those days (and continue to be, but much more so back then). After all, it was the unfair trials which eventually resulted in his being released. My position is basically that we will never know the truth (sorry to state the obvious), but I have trouble coming down on one side or the other.
One of the guys involved with the case was actually a white member of the civil rights movement and he declared that Carter was guilty.
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