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#21
Old 08-06-2012, 06:52 PM
SBleeder
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Vs. George Foreman from the first Frazier fight, I'd bet on:

Ali/Clay, any version 1963 to 1977.
Joe Louis, from maybe 1937 until 1947-48.
Holmes, any championship version before Spinks
Liston, 1958 through 1968 or so. (Yes, I think the Liston who lost to Clay/Ali beats Foreman).

If you gave me 2-1 odds, I'd bet on Holyfield.

Call me crazy, but I'd take the same spread on Ezzard Charles... Ok, maybe it would have to be 4-1.

That's about it. Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson, the Brothers Klitschko, Lewis... not a chance in hell across the board.

Jack Johnson... I'd favor Foreman here, but Johnson certainly had the skill to give him problems.
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#22
Old 08-06-2012, 06:57 PM
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big guys with a good enough chin to weather the storm.

a small man would have to come forward. i dont think there's a fighter who ever lived who could come forward on george foreman to the point where i'd be comfortable picking him. he was too powerful. eventually you'd run into something and get stopped.

lewis had slip ups against lesser fighters than foreman, but his chin was solid and his jab and long punches would be enough to ensure that he was not simply blown out of the water. i still think he loses the fight.

larry holmes had a style that would have allowed him to pretty handily win rounds on the outside. enough of a right hand and whatever the hell you call his left hand ("flying knuckle sandwich") to get serious respect, a great jab (and not just a good one,) and the legs, at his best, to win the balance of the round
holmes was caught and badly hurt against lesser fighters in acorn shavers and renaldo snipes. who is to say the greatest puncher of all time doesnt finish the job? shavers was a devastating puncher, but lets be real, in terms of actually getting a top tier historic HW in 15 round shape out of there, it's foreman all the way.

holmes via decision or late stoppage.

muhammad ali beat him beyond his best and i dont need to go into much more detail than that. ali had the chin, the craft, and the temperament to allow george to tire without getting smashed. in his prime he could dance all night, and past prime he could weather almost anything.

yall know the verdict.


i'll also add sonny liston. huge reach. huge punch. another "great," not just "good" jab. great jab. what a hard jab liston had. it makes the same sound that his opponent's right hands and left hooks make when you hear the recordings. that's the thud of his knuckles, and not the mere slapping sound you hear when you lightly touch something and the surface area of the glove endures the impact. liston had a penetrating jab
and of course there's the legend (which somebody here may indeed be able to confirm through film,) that their sparring sessions while foreman was in finishing school always featured george getting backed up. that's got to be taken for what it's worth, though, as foreman was a young man and liston was already a top flight professional.

short gunfight. highly competitive.

wladimir klitschko would be almost invariably stopped in the mid rounds. until then, though, if he didnt scared off, he might put leather on foreman.
foreman knockout

vitali is a different critter. he's got a dynamite chin. always has. personally i think he's too slow to score effectively against foreman, but of the two brother's he'd have the best chance by virtue of his chin. in his prime he could crack, too. very hard right hand when he actually unloaded the thing.

for the sake of nostalgia, foreman via stoppage after six rounds. on cuts...

TKO6. sorry VK



oh and then there's joe louis. the styles favor foreman. i still favor louis. a comparitively crude boxer would have issues with louis' punches. they're the best i've seen in the division to date. sick right hand. sick left hook. almost always in two and threes and always thrown "just right."

Last edited by New England; 08-06-2012 at 07:00 PM.
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#23
Old 08-06-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by res View Post
Well I think there are at least two different kinds of mental weakness: susceptibility to frustration and lack of toughness/grit. Liston proved he was mentally weak if he couldn't figure out a way to get off on an opponent round after round (susceptibility to frustration). That is why a slippery Boxer like Ali or Holmes will always be a problem for him. But I don't think he proved that he was mentally weak against a fighter that he could hit, and that he ends up having to trade with (toughness/grit) . That is ofcourse how this would go down as George wasn't really an allusive target.
You know, no one has ever shown conclusively that Liston's shoulder wasn't genuinely and severely hurt.

Regardless, Liston showed throughout his career that he was one of the toughest heavyweights ever to step in a ring. Against Foreman, his superior defense (in his real prime he was a defensive wizard at times) and toughness would be the difference. I don't necessarily think he'd simply have to trade with George.
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#24
Old 08-06-2012, 07:19 PM
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Oh here we go.
How wordy of you.

All the patience and skill he displayed in the Norton fight were all but gone for those two fights you brought up. One preceded by a one year layoff, the other followed by a 10 year retirement.

Do you see the same Foreman in these fights as you do against Norton or Kirkman? Even Frazier?
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#25
Old 08-06-2012, 07:53 PM
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oh and then there's joe louis. the styles favor foreman.
I'm curious... how do you figure this?
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#26
Old 08-06-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Capaedia View Post
How wordy of you.

All the patience and skill he displayed in the Norton fight were all but gone for those two fights you brought up. One preceded by a one year layoff, the other followed by a 10 year retirement.

Do you see the same Foreman in these fights as you do against Norton or Kirkman? Even Frazier?
You know what I meant. Trying to use the "past prime" excuse for young Foreman is pretty redicilous. Atleast with Tyson you can point to him losing an actual, very elaborate skillset(Cus' number system, peek a boo emphasis etc) by firing his original team, not just his personal life problems.

You know why Foreman didn't look the same? Because he wasn't fighting the same guys. Norton never dealt well with powerful punchers and Frazier's style fell right into Foreman's (illegal) hands. It's a diffirent ball game when his limited, technically style which only worked for the first few rounds, was up against skilled boxers who could deal with him like Ali and Young.
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#27
Old 08-06-2012, 08:55 PM
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I'm curious... how do you figure this?
louis is a markedly smaller man, and a flat footed puncher.
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#28
Old 08-06-2012, 09:16 PM
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Corrie Sanders vs. Foreman would have been a fun little slug fest to watch. Of course Sanders would get KO'd late in the first round or second round as his chin would not hold up.
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#29
Old 08-06-2012, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Yaman View Post
You know what I meant. Trying to use the "past prime" excuse for young Foreman is pretty redicilous. Atleast with Tyson you can point to him losing an actual, very elaborate skillset(Cus' number system, peek a boo emphasis etc) by firing his original team, not just his personal life problems.
With Foreman you can point to him being humiliated, outwitted, outfought and finally knocked out by a massive underdog. Followed by a year long layoff

Ali took his confidence. After that, Foreman was terrified of fighting the same way for fear of gassing out.

Quote:
You know why Foreman didn't look the same? Because he wasn't fighting the same guys. Norton never dealt well with powerful punchers and Frazier's style fell right into Foreman's (illegal) hands. It's a diffirent ball game when his limited, technically style which only worked for the first few rounds, was up against skilled boxers who could deal with him like Ali and Young.
Have you seen these fights? Foreman came out looking to soften them up until he got his opening. He showed patience, a gameplan and some overlooked boxing skills. They aren't ATG level, but they were good.

Ali got inside his head and made Foreman fight a stupid fight where he just came out swinging for the fences from round 1 until the fights end.

Even then, Ali took tremendous punishment to do what he did, punishment I don't think any other heavyweight in history could have taken.

Young put on a good display in the latter half of the fight. That is true. But I don't see the same Foreman (mentally) in there with him as the one that demolished his way to the Rumble In The Jungle. I'm not the only one
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#30
Old 08-06-2012, 10:39 PM
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Holmes, Lewis, Young, Vitali Klitschko, Tyson, Liston, Ali, Holyfield, Louis, Tunney.

Several others would have less of a chance, but still have a chance.

(Yeah, I don't think that highly of 70s Foreman.)
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