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#11
Old 08-06-2012, 06:51 AM
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To be honest 70s Foreman had pacing issues, its a fact. Its just that even with pacing issues many ATG heavyweights would struggle to last 5 rounds with him.

If an opponent could get past round 7, they had a chance. But to get past round 7 they had to have a superb chin as well as excellent distance stamina. Ali's chin goes without saying, Jimmy Young was very lucky to survive round 7 (Foreman threw everything including the kitchen sink at him), but finished the fight very well.

I'd personally give prime Riddick Bowe a passable shot. I don't think it would be impossible to see prime Evander Holyfield stealing a decision, but I'd really fear for him. Larry Holmes was slippery enough at his best and had a good enough chin to at least perform as well as Jimmy Young. Liston would have a very good chance too (again excellent chin and distance stamina).

Against prime Tyson it would be a pickem fight for me. Many would disagree with this.

But to be honest Foreman's prime would have probably arrived around 1980-1982. He had really sorted out his pacing issues in his second coming. Its possible that we never really saw the prime of Foreman.
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#12
Old 08-06-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by fight_professor View Post

Liston - had a wicked jab, but was mentally a bit weak ala Tyson. .
Well I think there are at least two different kinds of mental weakness: susceptibility to frustration and lack of toughness/grit. Liston proved he was mentally weak if he couldn't figure out a way to get off on an opponent round after round (susceptibility to frustration). That is why a slippery Boxer like Ali or Holmes will always be a problem for him. But I don't think he proved that he was mentally weak against a fighter that he could hit, and that he ends up having to trade with (toughness/grit) . That is ofcourse how this would go down as George wasn't really an allusive target.

Last edited by res; 08-06-2012 at 07:43 AM.
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#13
Old 08-06-2012, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Yaman View Post
History has forgotten about the Jimmy Young fight I guess. He outboxed Foreman and further exposed his many technical flaws.

It's too bad he retired when he did because I think Larry Holmes would have boxed him silly and we wouldn't be having debates like this.

It's also too bad he never fought Quarry either because that was another problematic style matchup for him.

It just seems like people like to think the younger Foreman could just literally blow his way through anybody except Ali despite the, again, Young fight and the fact that Boxing is so much more than that.

Edit- forgot you said past and present.
In that case the list grows longer. Muhammad Ali, Jimmy Young, Larry Holmes, Jerry Quarry, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Sonny Liston. I also refuse to believe Foreman was so invincible in a punch-out due to the Ron Lyle fight, so whose to say some of the punchers of the past would have had a good shot at beating him.
I honestly think Lennox would fold under Foreman's power.
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#14
Old 08-06-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
To be honest 70s Foreman had pacing issues, its a fact. Its just that even with pacing issues many ATG heavyweights would struggle to last 5 rounds with him.

If an opponent could get past round 7, they had a chance. But to get past round 7 they had to have a superb chin as well as excellent distance stamina. Ali's chin goes without saying, Jimmy Young was very lucky to survive round 7 (Foreman threw everything including the kitchen sink at him), but finished the fight very well.

I'd personally give prime Riddick Bowe a passable shot. I don't think it would be impossible to see prime Evander Holyfield stealing a decision, but I'd really fear for him. Larry Holmes was slippery enough at his best and had a good enough chin to at least perform as well as Jimmy Young. Liston would have a very good chance too (again excellent chin and distance stamina).

Against prime Tyson it would be a pickem fight for me. Many would disagree with this.

But to be honest Foreman's prime would have probably arrived around 1980-1982. He had really sorted out his pacing issues in his second coming. Its possible that we never really saw the prime of Foreman.
You make some really good points, chief.
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#15
Old 08-06-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Capaedia View Post
I'd give Liston, Louis and Holmes a good shot.

Liston by out-slugging Foreman due to his better technique and defense. I'd see the ending being around round 3-5. Of course he could try to keep Foreman outside with his longer reach and superior technical skills, but I don't see it holding up long enough to make it to UD.

Louis by keeping the fight where he wants it and weakening Foreman (dropped a few times along the way) and then catching him with one of his picture perfect right hands and hurting him. I think Joe Louis is the best finisher I've ever seen, George couldn't afford to be hurt.

Holmes by moving and moving and moving, keeping George off balance and giving him angles. Not allowing Foreman to impose his superior strength and power with movement. I think his best shot is at a UD, but I wouldn't rule out a late stoppage by exhaustion and not power, a la Rumble in the Jungle.

But I still think chances are all three of them are overpowered and clubbed into unconsciousness.



This is the Liston who had his jaw broke and kept fighting for 11 rounds.

Right?


In much the same way Douglas fought a physical prime but not mental prime Tyson, Young and Lyle fought a physical prime but not mental prime Foreman.

Afro aside, he looks nothing like the fighter that demolished Norton. That was when I think he looked his best, and I would bet on him knocking both men out early if they had fought that Foreman.




There are men that would beat Foreman. They are not the ones who decide to trade with him.

Tua would be overpowered and probably stopped on his feet. He does not have the range to return fire at Foreman. I'd say it would look like Foreman-Frazier but Tua is stronger and has a spectacular chin.

Ibeabuchi would be able to make it look competitive but his chin would be his downfall. Foreman hits a lot harder than him and has a great chin himself. George KO early-mid rounds.
im sure you must have read how liston would back foreman up in sparring, yet you think foreman overpowers him?
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#16
Old 08-06-2012, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VIPrice View Post
im sure you must have read how liston would back foreman up in sparring, yet you think foreman overpowers him?
Sparring doesn't mean very much. Foreman would have been very green, and also very afraid of Liston.

See how he dealt with men he was afraid of later in his career when he was more confident, i.e. Joe Frazier.

Liston was a very, very strong man. But I'd bet money that Foreman is stronger. He's also a more consistently physical fighter
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#17
Old 08-06-2012, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by res View Post
Well I think there are at least two different kinds of mental weakness: susceptibility to frustration and lack of toughness/grit. Liston proved he was mentally weak if he couldn't figure out a way to get off on an opponent round after round (susceptibility to frustration). That is why a slippery Boxer like Ali or Holmes will always be a problem for him. But I don't think he proved that he was mentally weak against a fighter that he could hit, and that he ends up having to trade with (toughness/grit) . That is ofcourse how this would go down as George wasn't really an allusive target.
i agree with this. physically tough, but could lose heart ala v Ali 1.
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#18
Old 08-06-2012, 09:24 AM
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I favor Sonny Liston over anybody not named Muhammad Ali TBH.

I used to think a few years back that Lennox Lewis may have a chance but I'm not really sure anymore. I reckon Foreman folds Lewis like a deckchair.
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#19
Old 08-06-2012, 03:15 PM
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You make some really good points, chief.
Cheers bud....
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#20
Old 08-06-2012, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Capaedia View Post
In much the same way Douglas fought a physical prime but not mental prime Tyson, Young and Lyle fought a physical prime but not mental prime Foreman.

Afro aside, he looks nothing like the fighter that demolished Norton. That was when I think he looked his best, and I would bet on him knocking both men out early if they had fought that Foreman.
Oh here we go.

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Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
There is a common misconception that Young outboxed Foreman when it was more of a case of George getting gassed out in the second half of the fight. Before then Foreman was dominating and almost stopped Young.
He gassed because he couldn't put Young away due to his defense. Young deserves credit for that performance and it shows that there were more ways to beat Foreman than just the rope-a-dope(although Ali also boxed him silly, exposing the many technical flaws of Foreman).

Many of the greats would simply survive the early barrage, and then Foreman is gassed and his spirits crushed. The man didn't go the distance in many years before his first retirement and only had like 1 KO past the 5th round the few years before he retired. Simply put, if you survive the early onslaught, the odds of beating him increase tremendously and I can see many greats beat him.
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