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#111
Old 08-25-2012, 08:09 PM
Sugarj
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Originally Posted by res View Post
The terms in bold I would certainly agree with, and that was precisely Foreman's problem at this stage of his carer in my opinion. a non-technical low stamina wrecking ball does not need to become more patient and cautious.





In my opinion Frazier looked motivated when he first came out in the 73' fight and he actually looked pretty good during the first moments of the round landing a few left hooks and dictating the pace with not much coming back from George but pushing and jabs. But it was almost like once he tasted Foreman's power it took something out of him, and he started fighting on instinct rather than passion.



Round 7? See that's the thing, Foreman's prime M/0 is not to outpoint his opponent, it is to take him out, although it did happen on occasion as in the Peralta fight. In the Young fight, George Foreman was absolutely horrible when it came to cutting off the ring, nothing like in his earlier years. Look, personally I'm like you, I prefer Boxers to brawlers or sluggers, but a fighter at the end of the day should use what works for them and the more timid approach that George seemed to develop after Ali duped him the way that he did, failed to maximize George's make up as a fighter. It made him start to second guess himself and consequently, to become a different fighter.

I don't know, I guess that for me the best George Foreman would have fell somewhere between the monster who beat Frazier first time and the patient, well paced Foreman of the early 90s.

We just never got to see him! But I think he was on the right path.

Even a great puncher like Foreman was going to run into guys who he couldn't knock out. Thats where solid 12/15 round pacing comes in. He was getting there, but he couldn't help himself when the red mist came down in the Young fight. If he had never landed that left hook that staggered Young he'd have probably won a decision (it was close anyway!).

He'd have probably become champ the next year. I don't think 1978 Ali could have beaten him, Leon Spinks would have been destroyed. Norton vs a more patient Foreman? Naa, he'd have been knocked out again. Holmes in 1978? Oooooo, don't know tough call. I thought Holmes peaked a couple of years later.
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#112
Old 08-27-2012, 07:42 AM
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I don't know, I guess that for me the best George Foreman would have fell somewhere between the monster who beat Frazier first time and the patient, well paced Foreman of the early 90s.


Even a great puncher like Foreman was going to run into guys who he couldn't knock out. Thats where solid 12/15 round pacing comes in.
.
Those guys would have to be in more than just survive mode though, that's the problem. What fighters from that era do you think were likely to accomplish this? Personally, I have trouble seeing anyone from that era but Ali getting this done. Foreman in taking this more patient, hesitant approach may have been trying to fix something that was only broken as far as Ali was concerned, and even he wasn't anxious for a rematch to try and do it again.

Last edited by res; 08-27-2012 at 08:09 AM.
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#113
Old 08-27-2012, 01:39 PM
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This may well incite derision 'cause the man doesn't get the respect he deserves on this site, partly because of his nationality, but Lennox Lewis would defeat a 70's Foreman.

Not only would he beat him, he'd knock him out before the fight went into the later rounds. A 90's version of Big George would fair better and could probably last the distance if the ref doesn't stop it late on.

In his 40's he wouldn't pose the same kind of threat so Lennox would be content to fight him at range, stay away from his right hand, pick him off with accurate punching and fight at a slow and steady pace.

In the 70's Foreman was a man too enamoured by his own power. Now while you could argue that he had good reason, it was at the detriment to his craft and conditioning. Physically and psychologically he'd be prepared to go five rounds. That wouldn't be enough to deal with a boxer of Lewis' calibre.

Lennox is bigger, has a longer reach, is naturally more athletic; had better movement; better hand speed; superior punch accuracy; strategically and tactically he was a better fighter than Foreman in the 70's; and he had a better grasp of the craft of boxing.

Also, Lennox would be feared half to death by the thought of getting caught by a man with George's size and power, and rightly so. When Lewis was afraid, he came out focused, sharp and willing to take his opponent out early.

I would never be so disrespectful as to suggest that Foreman would have had a puncher's chance, because he was a better boxer than that in the 70's so he would have brought more to the contest. He just wouldn't have brought enough.
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#114
Old 08-27-2012, 06:03 PM
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Those guys would have to be in more than just survive mode though, that's the problem. What fighters from that era do you think were likely to accomplish this? Personally, I have trouble seeing anyone from that era but Ali getting this done. Foreman in taking this more patient, hesitant approach may have been trying to fix something that was only broken as far as Ali was concerned, and even he wasn't anxious for a rematch to try and do it again.

I grant you, there aren't many heavyweights in history, let alone the 70s who would survive the Foreman who met Frazier or Norton.

He would always be at risk of losing to technicians with half decent chins, if he had kept his pre Ali gameplan. 1973 Foreman might have buldozed 1977 Jimmy Young.....but I'm not too sure. The shots Young took in round seven were sickening, yet he survived!

I think Larry Holmes had a decent enough chin and enough slippery skills to have a good chance at beating prime Foreman.

Historically Sonny Liston would have a good chance. Much better at pacing than George....and pretty good whiskers at his best too.
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#115
Old 08-27-2012, 06:24 PM
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This may well incite derision 'cause the man doesn't get the respect he deserves on this site, partly because of his nationality, but Lennox Lewis would defeat a 70's Foreman.

Not only would he beat him, he'd knock him out before the fight went into the later rounds. A 90's version of Big George would fair better and could probably last the distance if the ref doesn't stop it late on.

In his 40's he wouldn't pose the same kind of threat so Lennox would be content to fight him at range, stay away from his right hand, pick him off with accurate punching and fight at a slow and steady pace.

In the 70's Foreman was a man too enamoured by his own power. Now while you could argue that he had good reason, it was at the detriment to his craft and conditioning. Physically and psychologically he'd be prepared to go five rounds. That wouldn't be enough to deal with a boxer of Lewis' calibre.

Lennox is bigger, has a longer reach, is naturally more athletic; had better movement; better hand speed; superior punch accuracy; strategically and tactically he was a better fighter than Foreman in the 70's; and he had a better grasp of the craft of boxing.

Also, Lennox would be feared half to death by the thought of getting caught by a man with George's size and power, and rightly so. When Lewis was afraid, he came out focused, sharp and willing to take his opponent out early.

I would never be so disrespectful as to suggest that Foreman would have had a puncher's chance, because he was a better boxer than that in the 70's so he would have brought more to the contest. He just wouldn't have brought enough.

Lennox might well have a shot, he had plenty of tools at his best. I'd put my money on Foreman though.

Alot depends on what Lewis showed up. Even at his most nervous and focused he wasn't the most elusive. Lewis wouldn't pull off a Ruddock/Golota/Grant demolishion job on prime Foreman.

Pre Manny Steward Lewis simply gets hit too much. He'd get drilled by something much nastier than McCall or Rahman could dish out. Check out the Bruno fight and imagine prime Foreman in there with him.

As for post Steward, Foreman would surely beat the Lewis that met Mercer. Actually, come to think of it; can anyone think of a Lewis fight that could give some support to the notion of Lewis beating Foreman? We'd need to see a Lewis that was defensively very sound for at least 5 or 6 rounds. Foreman had the power to turn the lights off very quickly. I don't fancy that Lennox could cope with that sort of power.

Lewis had a tough time with Shannon Briggs, he certainly shipped some decent shots off Holyfield in both fights, Tua was woefully out of shape. Nobody should dare mention the corpse of Mike Tyson who met Lewis in 2003.

No two ways about it Lewis is one of the best heavyweights ever, I just don't like his chances against prime Foreman. Did Lewis ever meet a heavyweight close to Foreman's level and not ship some punishment early? Foreman would have only needed one punch.

Granted, if Lewis got past round 7.....he'd have a great shot.
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#116
Old 08-27-2012, 06:55 PM
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Call me crazy but I ahve a rather large number of HW beating 70's Foreman. Vitali,Tua,Tyson,Holyfield,Bowe, and maybee even an inshape James Toney(The one that fought Holyfield or Rydell Booker).
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#117
Old 08-27-2012, 06:58 PM
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Call me crazy but I ahve a rather large number of HW beating 70's Foreman. Vitali,Tua,Tyson,Holyfield,Bowe, and maybee even an inshape James Toney(The one that fought Holyfield or Rydell Booker).
I won't call you crazy.....just terminally stupid.

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