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#41
Old 07-24-2012, 07:38 AM
Sugarj
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
Leonard never dominated Duran at any point in time.
That third fight was near as dammit a shutout. Duran was very much dominated by a pretty sub par Leonard.
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#42
Old 07-24-2012, 12:15 PM
joseph5620
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Originally Posted by The Noose View Post
I find it amazing for anyone to say the biggest difference was that duran was out of shape or was a shell of himself from the 1st fight.
How can anyone not see how Leonard moved differently? I just watched the 1st round of both fights, and it is clear Leonard is more flat footed in the first fight, giving Duran opportunities to attack. Plus Leonard feints and jabs to the body way more in the rematch, obviously trying to tease out Durans lead for counter punching opportunities. Leonard threw many more power punches in the 1st fight and imo clearly wanted to out fight Duran.
In the rematch he knew better, and its obvious from the 1st round. He never lets his back touch the ropes and there are fewer clinches because Leonard was moving away from Duran much more than in the 1st fight.

Theres no denying Duran wasnt at his best, but imo he got outboxed, frustrated and the stomach cramps were an excuse. He was getting nailed more and more with good shots.
What I hate more than anything is the pass Duran gets for quitting. If Leonard quit history would not be nearly as kind to him. Duran was clearly losing the second fight and he quit. Whether he was "dominated" or not he quit and that tells you all you need to know about it. The excuses for that don't cut it. If he was "out of shape" who's fault is that?

Last edited by joseph5620; 07-24-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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#43
Old 07-24-2012, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
What I hate more than anything is the pass Duran gets for quitting. If Leonard quit history would not be nearly as kind to him. Duran was clealy losing the second fight and he quit. Whether he was "dominated" or not he quit and at tells you all you need to know about it. The excuses for that don't cut it. If he was "out of shape" who's fault is that?
Exactly my point.. Don't get me wrong I do love Duran as a fighter and always will. But, SRL would've always been a problem for him no matter what the issue was at the time. Of course, the Ray who used his full boxing arsenal. I just don't know why certain people can't just accept that
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#44
Old 07-24-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mintcar923 View Post
Exactly my point.. Don't get me wrong I do love Duran as a fighter and always will. But, SRL would've always been a problem for him no matter what the issue was at the time. Of course, the Ray who used his full boxing arsenal. I just don't know why certain people can't just accept that
I agree and like Duran as a fighter too. But it seems a lot of people want to discredit Leonard in the second fight by giving Duran numerous excuses. No matter how that fight is viewed in terms of how it was going, Duran quit. That tells you all you need to know about who was winning/in control.
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#45
Old 07-24-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
He did outskill him in the first fight. And no need to say "dare I say", Duran was as skilled as Leonard, if not more.

Of course Leonard doesn't have Duran's number, when they fought each other when both were at their best, Duran won.
I had leonard winning, people say Duran won and i understand why, before this they were used to seeing Ray have his way with fighters, nd then he was in a real life n death fight out of no were, but he landed more punches nd they hit as hard as each other, its just duran looks better coz its his element, im not a huge fan of either so i dont wanna hear about me being biased, truthfully i think Estaban Dejesus was better to watch than both
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#46
Old 07-25-2012, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
I agree and like Duran as a fighter too. But it seems a lot of people want to discredit Leonard in the second fight by giving Duran numerous excuses. No matter how that fight is viewed in terms of how it was going, Duran quit. That tells you all you need to know about who was winning/in control.
Leonard often doesnt get the credit he deserves for his big wins.

Against Hearns, they say Hearns was gassed. IMO thats bull, as Leonard, although getting out boxed, was able to hurt Hearns in the first half of the fight, and simply outfought him and stopped him late. Amazing comeback win.

Against Duran...Duran quit, he was out of shape, he had cramps etc etc etc. Bull. Leonard fought a great fight. Against anyone else, Duran would have probably pummelled them.

Againt Hagler...The judges were biased, and Leonard threw 'pitty-pat' punches to impress the judges. BULL! Leonard came out of a 5 year retirement, and beat the great dominant destructive champion with great movement, timing, combinations, and made him miss badly all night. Perfect tactics. Leonard also threw good hard clean shots.
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#47
Old 07-25-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by The Noose View Post
Leonard often doesnt get the credit he deserves for his big wins.

Against Hearns, they say Hearns was gassed. IMO thats bull, as Leonard, although getting out boxed, was able to hurt Hearns in the first half of the fight, and simply outfought him and stopped him late. Amazing comeback win.

Against Duran...Duran quit, he was out of shape, he had cramps etc etc etc. Bull. Leonard fought a great fight. Against anyone else, Duran would have probably pummelled them.

Againt Hagler...The judges were biased, and Leonard threw 'pitty-pat' punches to impress the judges. BULL! Leonard came out of a 5 year retirement, and beat the great dominant destructive champion with great movement, timing, combinations, and made him miss badly all night. Perfect tactics. Leonard also threw good hard clean shots.
Leonard gets all the credit he deserves. He's generally considered among the 10 or 15 best fighters ever, considering how short his career was compared to everyone else at that level that's getting all the credit he deserves for his wins.
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#48
Old 07-25-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bojangles1987 View Post
Leonard gets all the credit he deserves. He's generally considered among the 10 or 15 best fighters ever, considering how short his career was compared to everyone else at that level that's getting all the credit he deserves for his wins.

I said he 'often' doesnt get the credit he deserves. Especially if you look at Hagler videos, and Duran - Leonard 2 on youtube. There are many comments unfairly bringing him down.


Leonard did brilliantly considering he had only fought once in 5 years. Its true that he has said he only wanted to fight Hagler after seeing him fight Mugabi. But who else could have done what he did? It was still a huge gamble to take on Hagler after so many years of inactivity.

Saying that Leonard waited for Hagler to get old makes it sound like Leonard was Peter Pan. They were both ageing, but Leonard hadnt fought in 3 years. No wonder Hagler was the big favourite to win.

Last edited by JAB5239; 07-25-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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#49
Old 07-25-2012, 02:53 PM
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duran gives leonard credit by calling him best of the american fighters which says alot since he fought hagler and hearns.
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#50
Old 07-25-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by The Noose View Post
Leonard often doesnt get the credit he deserves for his big wins.

Against Hearns, they say Hearns was gassed. IMO thats bull, as Leonard, although getting out boxed, was able to hurt Hearns in the first half of the fight, and simply outfought him and stopped him late. Amazing comeback win.

Against Duran...Duran quit, he was out of shape, he had cramps etc etc etc. Bull. Leonard fought a great fight. Against anyone else, Duran would have probably pummelled them.

Againt Hagler...The judges were biased, and Leonard threw 'pitty-pat' punches to impress the judges. BULL! Leonard came out of a 5 year retirement, and beat the great dominant destructive champion with great movement, timing, combinations, and made him miss badly all night. Perfect tactics. Leonard also threw good hard clean shots.
Duran was in pitiful condition for the rematch and he would have been vulnerable to inferior talents that night. This is common knowledge. Leonard was a ATG talent, but you seem to be a little too protective of his reputation.
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