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#21
Old 07-23-2012, 03:21 PM
JAB5239
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Originally Posted by chav View Post
12 rounds of slowly and cautiously jabbing away whilst flinching and looking cautiously for openings to hold when the opponent tries to unleash his fury.

No one wants to see 2 big heavyweights stick it all on the line to prove who is the better man by knocking the other out as fast and brutally as possible.

Obviously.
Lol, you f*cking d*ck!!
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#22
Old 07-23-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

You keep bringing up race and color as a reason MOST people don't find the heavyweight division exciting. Where exactly is this information coming from? What proof do you have of this? I don't see anyone saying thats the reason they find it boring and unless you're able to psychoanalyze everyone you think that about (and over a computer no less) than you're full of crap.

The reason its seen as boring is because its like pulling teeth to get the best contenders to fight one another. When we do get that they're slow and out of shape more times than not. Its seen as boring because the two most dominant fighters do not seek and destroy in spite of having massive advantages in skill and more time than not, size.

Take a poll and ask what people prefer from their heavyweights, guys who are dominant but play it safe or guys who go balls to the wall. I promise you it would be lopsided in favor of the latter. I don't doubt there are some who don't like the Klits for their color, but the majority could care less and find the division boring for the reasons I named.

Gene Tunney was never accepted in his time because he came after Dempsey and was thought of as a thinking mans fighter, ie, boring. Holmes, same thing. Micheal Moorer because he wasn't the killer at heavyweight as he was at light heavyweight. People are drawn towards warriors, thats the bottom line. The whole race excuse is a fabrication with nothing to back it up made up by guys who cannot understand why people aren't as fascinated with certain fighters as they are.
Still waiting for a response to this post by those who think its because of race and color most find the heavyweights boring. Anyone?
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#23
Old 07-23-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Still waiting for a response to this post by those who think its because of race and color most find the heavyweights boring. Anyone?
I agree, but there are many out there that will come out and say "This is boxing not fighting..."

I agree with you as to why they are boring and that race is not a factor in the bigger picture, however it would be ignorant to say that it has no influence...By race I mean nationality. If you dont agree, thats your opinion I wont argue because I do not see the point in arguing something that is beyond obvious. Overall people dont like it because the division is boring. Agree 100%, but if the Klits were American, yanks would love them...its called pride and everyone has it. Two American brothers holding all the heavy belts...THere would have been 5 movies about them by now...This is the kinda drama feel good story that Americans adore. Two brothers, sons of an air force officer...
They would be front right and center of that "American F1CK Yeah" song/video.

Last edited by Banderivets; 07-23-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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#24
Old 07-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Still waiting for a response to this post by those who think its because of race and color most find the heavyweights boring. Anyone?
I think the belief began when HBO President Ross Greenburg said he didn't have any interest in televising Klitschko fights - not because they were boring, but because "Americans couldn't tell them apart." He didn't care if they were good fights or bad fights, he just had no interest in them.

Then he said "I think if we had a strong American heavyweight champion it would do wonders for American boxing."

He didn't say "exciting" American heavyweight. He based it on nationality.

Hell, if a German television network announced it would no longer televise the Super Middleweight division because Germans couldn't tell Andre Ward and Andre Dirrell apart and then he said he thought a "Top German Super Middleweight" would do wonders - and they'd definitely televise the top German's super middleweight's fights ... some Americans might find that a "tad" bit racist.

HBO used to be about televising the best fighters - Roy Jones and Whitaker used to bore people to sleep because they were so dominant. HBO didn't refuse to air their fights. You can count the number of competitive, exciting Andre Ward fights on maybe one finger. Same with Chad Dawson. Yet HBO is excited about airing a matchup between those two. So just claiming someone is "Too Dominant" or dull doesn't make sense either.

HBO never said they were going to stop airing heavyweight fights because they were dull. They said they wanted to wait "for an American" heavyweight.

HBO is all about building "American" stars. Hell, when Amir Khan was knocked out a couple weeks ago, they said at the end of the telecast that Khan losing "was good for boxing." Khan losing wasn't good for boxing - it was good for an American network that televises boxing, so they didn't have to haul their cameras to England for fights.

Whether your biased based on race or nationality, it doesn't matter. It's still bias.

http://www.*********.com/Boxing/hbo-...use-fans-40017

One of the reasons IBF/WBO/IBO heavyweight champion Wladimir Klitschko’s defense of the unified heavyweight title against Philadelphia’s Eddie Chambers won’t be televised in the United States is that HBO executives believe U.S. fight fans can’t tell the difference between Wladimir and his brother, WBC heavyweight champion Vitali Klitschko.

“For a while, Wladimir was hell-bent on maintaining a presence in the United States, and we were starting to break through with him,” Ross Greenburg, president of HBO Sports, told ESPN. “Unfortunately, at the same time, his brother decided to come back, so that kind of confused the consumer again in the United States. People have trouble differentiating.”

The 51,000+ in attendance and 110 countries that ARE televising the world heavyweight championship fight have managed to differentiate between the brothers. What about you?


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/box...dan&id=5347178

The division Greenburg is not interested in is heavyweight. Wladimir Klitschko and Vitali Klitschko are fine champions, he said, but there is a lack of interest in them in the United States, meaning a lack of interest in them from HBO.

"I'm really souring on the heavyweights," Greenburg said. "There doesn't seem to be any interest in the U.S. and there doesn't seem to be any heavyweights besides David Haye who would have any juice in challenging the Klitschkos. We're out of the heavyweight division. We're not playing in that sandbox right now. It doesn't make any sense for us. The fights happen over there [in Europe], they're on tape delay. There is just very little interest in this country."

Greenburg said HBO won't make an offer for Wladimir's September fight with Alexander Povetkin.

"We made a decision [Monday]," Greenburg said.

What about doing Vitali's next fight in the fall?

"Nope," he said. "The heavyweights have clearly lost their edge in the United States. I think we have enough stars in the lower weight divisions to get us through a down period for heavyweights. I think if we had a strong American heavyweight champion it would do wonders for American boxing, but it's just a dream at this point."

Other than a Klitschko against Haye, or one of those three against Tomasz Adamek, Greenburg said he doesn't see any heavyweights HBO is interested in.

"Other than that, we'll take a pass," he said. "It would be great if the Klitschkos came over here and reignited some interest in this division. It's tough to continually go over there. I understand their financials. I know how big they are in Germany and they will continue to fight over there. I understand the economics of their business."

Last edited by Dubblechin; 07-24-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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#25
Old 07-24-2012, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ukr_Alex View Post
I agree, but there are many out there that will come out and say "This is boxing not fighting..."

I agree with you as to why they are boring and that race is not a factor in the bigger picture, however it would be ignorant to say that it has no influence...By race I mean nationality. If you dont agree, thats your opinion I wont argue because I do not see the point in arguing something that is beyond obvious. Overall people dont like it because the division is boring. Agree 100%, but if the Klits were American, yanks would love them...its called pride and everyone has it. Two American brothers holding all the heavy belts...THere would have been 5 movies about them by now...This is the kinda drama feel good story that Americans adore. Two brothers, sons of an air force officer...
They would be front right and center of that "American F1CK Yeah" song/video.


Sure pride in ones country plays a role to a certain extent. But it didn't help Tunney or Holmes, both of whom were American and seen as ATG's. The talent and skills were excepted, but they were still boring......to their own people. So this isn't an isolated thing because the Klits are not American, though I have little doubt that and their skin tone do play a role to certain types. On the other hand Americans have accepted and even loved foreign fighters in the past such as Pacquiao, Chavez, Trinidad and others. Barry McGuigan was a regular on American tv in the 80's and was not even close to as great as Wlad...but he was exciting. When fighters like Louis, Dempsey, Liston (who was still unloved by America), Foreman, Tyson and Holyfield fought you KNEW you were gonna get a guy who didn't just want to win, but who wanted to annihilate his opponent or die trying. I just don't get that sense from the Klits and neither do a lot of others, so they don't appeal to us.

I agree there would probably be a movie about them and they would be more popular here if they were American. They're the best heavyweight brother duo ever and up there with the top duo's of any weight class in any era.

Also, thank you for the candid and well thought out response. We may share different views on the topic but I can respect anyone willing to give a reasonable breakdown of why they think the way they do.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dubblechin View Post
I think the belief began when HBO President Ross Greenburg said he didn't have any interest in televising Klitschko fights - not because they were boring, but because "Americans couldn't tell them apart." He didn't care if they were good fights or bad fights, he just had no interest in them.

Then he said "I think if we had a strong American heavyweight champion it would do wonders for American boxing."

He didn't say "exciting" American heavyweight. He based it on nationality.

Hell, if a German television network announced it would no longer televise the Super Middleweight division because Germans couldn't tell Andre Ward and Andre Dirrell apart and then he said he thought a "Top German Super Middleweight" would do wonders - and they'd definitely televise the top German's super middleweight's fights ... some Americans might find that a "tad" bit racist.

HBO used to be about televising the best fighters - Roy Jones and Whitaker used to bore people to sleep because they were so dominant. HBO didn't refuse to air their fights. You can count the number of competitive, exciting Andre Ward fights on maybe one finger. Same with Chad Dawson. Yet HBO is excited about airing a matchup between those two. So just claiming someone is "Too Dominant" or dull doesn't make sense either.

HBO never said they were going to stop airing heavyweight fights because they were dull. They said they wanted to wait "for an American" heavyweight.

HBO is all about building "American" stars. Hell, when Amir Khan was knocked out a couple weeks ago, they said at the end of the telecast that Khan losing "was good for boxing." Khan losing wasn't good for boxing - it was good for an American network that televises boxing, so they didn't have to haul their cameras to England for fights.

Whether your biased based on race or nationality, it doesn't matter. It's still bias.

http://www.*********.com/Boxing/hbo-...use-fans-40017

One of the reasons IBF/WBO/IBO heavyweight champion Wladimir Klitschko’s defense of the unified heavyweight title against Philadelphia’s Eddie Chambers won’t be televised in the United States is that HBO executives believe U.S. fight fans can’t tell the difference between Wladimir and his brother, WBC heavyweight champion Vitali Klitschko.

“For a while, Wladimir was hell-bent on maintaining a presence in the United States, and we were starting to break through with him,” Ross Greenburg, president of HBO Sports, told ESPN. “Unfortunately, at the same time, his brother decided to come back, so that kind of confused the consumer again in the United States. People have trouble differentiating.”

The 51,000+ in attendance and 110 countries that ARE televising the world heavyweight championship fight have managed to differentiate between the brothers. What about you?


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/box...dan&id=5347178

The division Greenburg is not interested in is heavyweight. Wladimir Klitschko and Vitali Klitschko are fine champions, he said, but there is a lack of interest in them in the United States, meaning a lack of interest in them from HBO.

"I'm really souring on the heavyweights," Greenburg said. "There doesn't seem to be any interest in the U.S. and there doesn't seem to be any heavyweights besides David Haye who would have any juice in challenging the Klitschkos. We're out of the heavyweight division. We're not playing in that sandbox right now. It doesn't make any sense for us. The fights happen over there [in Europe], they're on tape delay. There is just very little interest in this country."

Greenburg said HBO won't make an offer for Wladimir's September fight with Alexander Povetkin.

"We made a decision [Monday]," Greenburg said.

What about doing Vitali's next fight in the fall?

"Nope," he said. "The heavyweights have clearly lost their edge in the United States. I think we have enough stars in the lower weight divisions to get us through a down period for heavyweights. I think if we had a strong American heavyweight champion it would do wonders for American boxing, but it's just a dream at this point."

Other than a Klitschko against Haye, or one of those three against Tomasz Adamek, Greenburg said he doesn't see any heavyweights HBO is interested in.

"Other than that, we'll take a pass," he said. "It would be great if the Klitschkos came over here and reignited some interest in this division. It's tough to continually go over there. I understand their financials. I know how big they are in Germany and they will continue to fight over there. I understand the economics of their business."

I don't think casual viewers ever cared about anything Greenburg said. You either like the way a person fights or you don't. I can see how his statements would be taken if you weren't American though and I agree most would see it as racist if your Ward/Dirrell comparison played out. Don't understand the Roy Jones being boring part (though he wasnt always involved in exciting fights) but agree wholeheartedly about Whitaker. I appreciate the reply, chin!
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:57 AM
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I agree, but there are many out there that will come out and say "This is boxing not fighting..."

I agree with you as to why they are boring and that race is not a factor in the bigger picture, however it would be ignorant to say that it has no influence...By race I mean nationality. If you dont agree, thats your opinion I wont argue because I do not see the point in arguing something that is beyond obvious. Overall people dont like it because the division is boring. Agree 100%, but if the Klits were American, yanks would love them...its called pride and everyone has it. Two American brothers holding all the heavy belts...THere would have been 5 movies about them by now...This is the kinda drama feel good story that Americans adore. Two brothers, sons of an air force officer...
They would be front right and center of that "American F1CK Yeah" song/video.
Agree. It's not race, it's nationality NATIONALITY NATIONALITY.

Look at how hard Lennox Lewis was bashed during his days. American Haters like to say 'Oh But Lennox was boring'

If you go through every single fight of Tyson's and Lennox's, you will find that the number of exciting fights they have had is around the same. You can even make a case that from 1990+ onwards, Lennox had more exciting fights.
Let's look at Lennox from 1990+ and his big fights.
Bruno- Slug Fest
Ruddock- Destruction
Golota-Destruction
Mercer-SlugFest
Grant-Destruction
Vitali-SlugFest
Morrison-technical beat down, can't really say that's boring
Marovic-Technical beat down.
Tyson-death of a legend beat down.
The only big fights which Lennox should have done more in was
Holyfield 1 2 and Tua. Lennox actaully had just as many exciting fights as Iron Mike. If Lewis was American, he will be a boxing God

He is getting his dues now, because the HW Division is being dominated by two Eastern Europeans. But believe me, if it was two Americans dominating the HW'S, who knows how long Lennox would have had to wait before he got his just dues and just rankings.

American Bias is surreal. They had Holyfield ranked ahead of Lewis in 1997, Lewis was coming off a beat down of Prime Golota, Holyfield went life and death with Vaughn...............

That being said, to all the retarded Kbro fans who claim it's because they are not slick and black, THAT'S WHY AMERICA DON'T LOVE THEM. That's stupid and moronic. Kbros are boring, but effective combine those traits with them being Eastern Europeans and it = death of the HW Division in America.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:05 AM
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Another thing I noticed, on my home site (where HW talks is a lot more common) is that the Klitschkos hate run deep.

One example is, Lennox have a lot of fans, but he also have a lot of 'fake fans' who don't really like Lennox, they just need him to bash the Kbros. Lewis have some very very important traits the Kbro haters need.

1- The obvious tko6.
2- His size. See the Kbro fans in h2h matchups always bring up the Kbros much superior size advantage over the American HW Legends in the fantasy matchups. It don't work in h2h matchups against Lewis. Lewis is just as big as Wlad, just as strong and with a longer reach.
3-The fact he avenged both his defeats, Wlad didn't, Vitali didn't. Easy way of bashing the Kbros.
You use any other fighter like Tyson and Kbro fans can pull out Douglas, Holyfield etc. Saying Tyson don't have that champion's mentality to 'avenge his defeats' etc.
4- The fact that he retired at the right time and don't have embarrassing knockout losses like 99% of all the other champions.

Overall, Lewis is the perfect storm in any Klithscko debate for Klitschko haters to use. THAT'S HOW MUCH K-Bros are hated. Lennox Lewis who beat up an aged shot American Legend in Tyson (one of America's favorite athletes of all times) is priased on various boxing sites now and have an ****ing army of 'tko6 soldiers'

Last edited by UnicornGirl; 07-24-2012 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:16 PM
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You keep bringing up race and color as a reason MOST people don't find the heavyweight division exciting. Where exactly is this information coming from? What proof do you have of this? I don't see anyone saying thats the reason they find it boring and unless you're able to psychoanalyze everyone you think that about (and over a computer no less) than you're full of crap.
Don't forget to add nationalism to that as well. Everyone loves to win. Look at when Jack Johnson was winning against white club fighters when he was champion. Caucasians not only hated him cause of that but would degrade his accomplishments and say Jim Jefferies would beat him. Black america did not care if Johnson was ducking black boxers as long as he was beating white club fighters. The same guy today that is being praised as one of the greatest ever considering his best victory was against someone coming off years of inactivity and out of shape. Lot of people like to follow their own kind. Look at before the fights, they sing the national anthems of their place of origin. You're being naive if you think race, nationality, color, etc doesn't play with boxing. Also look at people that love defensive boxers who don't get hit often and happen to be black, they turn around and critizice the Klits for "boxing" as well, top it off most of their fights end in knockouts. The same knockouts people tuned in to watch Tyson even if he fought against the typical tomato can.


Quote:
The reason its seen as boring is because its like pulling teeth to get the best contenders to fight one another. When we do get that they're slow and out of shape more times than not. Its seen as boring because the two most dominant fighters do not seek and destroy in spite of having massive advantages in skill and more time than not, size.
They get the knockouts. Mayweather and many other boxers don't seek and destroy. Look at the advantages Lewis had against the much shorter Holyfield and Tyson. He gets praised left and right because he beat them considering they weren't exactly prime boxers. You out of all people know boxing back then wasn't exciting because most major fights were clinchfests by the 5th round. I told you that before and you didn't respond to that. Also if they were so boring they wouldn't be selling out places time and time again.



Quote:
Take a poll and ask what people prefer from their heavyweights, guys who are dominant but play it safe or guys who go balls to the wall. I promise you it would be lopsided in favor of the latter. I don't doubt there are some who don't like the Klits for their color, but the majority could care less and find the division boring for the reasons I named.
Making a poll here about the Klits won't be a fair one. That's as credible as me making one in a Russian website. Besides most people on here are idiots who usually follow one or a small group of boxers.


Quote:
Gene Tunney was never accepted in his time because he came after Dempsey and was thought of as a thinking mans fighter, ie, boring. Holmes, same thing. Micheal Moorer because he wasn't the killer at heavyweight as he was at light heavyweight. People are drawn towards warriors, thats the bottom line. The whole race excuse is a fabrication with nothing to back it up made up by guys who cannot understand why people aren't as fascinated with certain fighters as they are.
Holmes getting praised around here much more than he deserves and Moorer sucks. People are not drawn to total warriors, that is such a false statement. The race excuse isn't a fabrication. Take out all these black dominating players playing basketball and put them in another sport. Bet basketball won't be watched as much. Look at Tiger Woods, no one gave a **** about golf till he showed up. Take Mexicans out of soccer and boxing and put them somewhere else. Same change.
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Old 07-25-2012, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Fantastic View Post
Don't forget to add nationalism to that as well. Everyone loves to win. Look at when Jack Johnson was winning against white club fighters when he was champion. Caucasians not only hated him cause of that but would degrade his accomplishments and say Jim Jefferies would beat him. Black america did not care if Johnson was ducking black boxers as long as he was beating white club fighters.
Your logic is flawed because 1, it is a totally different set of circumstances. 2, Johnson did fight the best black fighters before becoming champ, but the same money wasn't there to fight them as white fighters when he became champ, in most cases. And 4, because Johnson was admired for his fighting skills and ability, not thought of as boring. If you can show me different feel free.

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The same guy today that is being praised as one of the greatest ever considering his best victory was against someone coming off years of inactivity and out of shape.
Who might that be?
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Lot of people like to follow their own kind. Look at before the fights, they sing the national anthems of their place of origin. You're being naive if you think race, nationality, color, etc doesn't play with boxing.
There is nothing wrong with that. But you're the one being naive if you think that plays on everyone's mind for every fighter. You've conveniently ignored the examples of foreign I've pointed out as proof of this. Here's another example for you....Vasily Jirov was one of my favorite fighters. Why? Because he "went after it". Why should I be a fan of his and not the Klits if they brought the same aggressive style?

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Also look at people that love defensive boxers who don't get hit often and happen to be black, they turn around and critizice the Klits for "boxing" as well, top it off most of their fights end in knockouts. The same knockouts people tuned in to watch Tyson even if he fought against the typical tomato can.
I don't particularly like defensive fighters, but I admire their skill. Hell, I never liked Malignaggi or Spadafora and Im Italian. Does that make me self loathing or do I just not find them exciting? I don't know what color has to do with it though. As far as Tyson....People watched him because he brought an air of total destruction with him. NO fighter at heavyweight today does that.


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Mayweather and many other boxers don't seek and destroy. Look at the advantages Lewis had against the much shorter Holyfield and Tyson. He gets praised left and right because he beat them considering they weren't exactly prime boxers. You out of all people know boxing back then wasn't exciting because most major fights were clinchfests by the 5th round. I told you that before and you didn't respond to that. Also if they were so boring they wouldn't be selling out places time and time again.

Holyfield and Tyson are all time greats and seen as the best challengers at the time. I'd be thankful if you showed me all these "clinchfests" though. I'll bet you I can come up with more examples of competitive and exciting fights.


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Making a poll here about the Klits won't be a fair one. That's as credible as me making one in a Russian website. Besides most people on here are idiots who usually follow one or a small group of boxers.

The poll isn't about the Klits so it would undoubtedly be fair. What do you prefer, play it safe fighter or warriors willing to put it on the line? Its a very simple question really.


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Holmes getting praised around here much more than he deserves and Moorer sucks.
Holmes gets praised for his all around game and gutsy performances. And Moorer while not great was still a very good fighter...just boring as hell.
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People are not drawn to total warriors, that is such a false statement.
Lets put up the poll and see than. I'll let you put it up so you don't think I've tried to manipulate it. Guys who play it safe or guys who go for it, which do you prefer?

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The race excuse isn't a fabrication.
If it's not a fabrication than show me some proof. Does it play a part to some people? Sure. Just as the Klits being white plays a part to some people. As that what the majority are about? Not that I can see, and not that you can prove. The majority just find them boring because they are.
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