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#11
Old 06-09-2012, 09:00 AM
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Helenius vs Chisora is inarguable the dumbest robbery ever IMO. Helenius dominated every single round if he threw more than 10 punches
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#12
Old 06-09-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
De La Hoya vs Mayweather.

Hagler vs Leonard.

Pacquiao vs Marquez 1 and 2.

Vitali vs Lewis.
I don't think anyone really called or calls De La Hoya - Mayweather a robbery except the die-hard Manny Pacquiao fans who know almost nothing about boxing and will post absolutley anything in a desperate attempt to bring Floyd down to Manny's level. I agree with you about the first two Pacquiao-Marquez fights. As much as I dislike Manny, I can't call them robberies even though I thought the 2nd one was a pretty clear win for Marquez, but it still had a few close rounds and was narrowly contested. I think I had it 115-112 and so that's not a major robbery. I actually had the first fight a draw. The 3rd one was totally different than the first two though, Marquez definitely should have won that one. Manny never really got going in that one as apposed to the first two where he always seemed to have moments. In the third fight he got straight up schooled.

Lennox Lewis vs Vitali Klitschko is a very good choice. I always get annoyed when people say that Lennox got a lucky escape and was down on the scorecards and this, that and the other. All of that is irrelevant because he was tearing Vitali a new eye-socket and it was very obvious that the fight wasn't going to go the distance. Yes he was tired and was obviously struggling physically but he was in better shape than Vitali was when it was stopped. I would have liked to see a rematch but it wasn't a robbery at all.

Amazingly enough, I haven't seen Hagler-Leonard yet but I have read plenty about it and i'm planning to watch it later today and then post my feelings about it in this thread. It's one of the most debated fights ever.

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Originally Posted by Mastrangelo View Post
Oh, there're tousends of those, hard to pick...
Leonard - Hagler
Leonard - Hearns II
Toney - Griffin I&II
Zbik - Spada
Kawashima - Navarro
Hopkins - Taylor I&II
Calzaghe - Hopkins
Mosley - De la Hoya II
Jackiewicz - Rodriguez
In fact there's much less(what doesn't mean little) robberies in boxing than most of people are trying to make it looks like. The reason is, that most of uneducated fans are convinced that there's only one correct way of scoring the round, so If they had it 115:113 for one guy in a fight with couple close rounds, they will still cry about robberies.
As for Sven Ottke, I didn't see clear robberie involving him, but what those fights were is very close bouts that in neutral ground could go either way, or I could even say it could go to Ottkes opponents because of Sven negativity, but "somehow" German was always getting all the benefits of a doubt from Judges. He was clearly favored.
And Macklin was robbed blind against Sturm.
Aside from the Robin Reid fight where it was clear that he didn't deserve to win, I disagree that Ottke got the benefit of the doubt in his home country and that on neutral grounds they might have gone the other way, because it wasn't like the crowd would go crazy whenever he threw a punch. From what I have seen they were just as quiet as the Japanese boxing fans are. In a lot of his fights he just carefully outboxed the opponent in a close victory. He was very careful and hesistant in the ring which meant that his fights usually had several close rounds but I wouldn't say that he was favoured because his first fight with Brewer and the fight with Byron Mitchell should have been unanimous decision victories in my opinion. Not split ones and the verdict against Rudy Markussen should have been wider than it was. There's still a few Ottke fights I haven't seen though.

I guess part of it depends on how you define a robbery. I look at it as being a fight where one guy won at least 8 rounds and got jobbed. I don't think you can say that De La Hoya did that against Mosley in the 2nd fight but I have seen it a few times and find it hard to give Shane more than 5 rounds. I completely disagree with your assesment of Sturm-Macklin. In my opinion, calling that fight a robbery is like saying that Mike McCallum was robbed in the first James Toney fight or that Johnny Tapia dominated Paulie Ayala in their fights. Can you make a good argument that he did enough to win the fight? Absolutley. But can you honestly give me 7 or 8 rounds that he won unequivocally? Absolutley not. It was a very close fight. Macklin won most of the first 6 rounds and Sturm won most of, if not all the last 6 rounds. I had Sturm winning by 116-113 and I think at best Macklin you can give Macklin 7 rounds. Any more than that is a stretching of reality, at least in my humble opinion. Ive seen several more controversial fights.

Last edited by JK1700; 06-09-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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#13
Old 06-09-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SCtrojansbaby View Post
Helenius vs Chisora is inarguable the dumbest robbery ever IMO. Helenius dominated every single round if he threw more than 10 punches
You're crazy. Chisora clearly won that fight.
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#14
Old 06-09-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
Number 3 was a robbery.
I think that was more of a petty theft. When I hear robbery, I think Lufthansa heist and Whittaker-Chavez. Speaking Sweet Pea, his fight with De La Hoya; I thought he won it by a point, but I think it's preposterous to claim he was robbed as people often do. It was close. And boring. Very boring.
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#15
Old 06-09-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by The Smash View Post
Good call on Leonard-Hearns II. While Tommy did put him down twice, Ray was never in trouble, unlike Hearns who was seriously hurt more than once. I scored it a draw, but I can see why people would give Hearns the nod.

Hagler-Leonard is absurdly debated at length. It is ridiculous; Leonard won, it was obvious.
are you on crack? leonard was badly hurt both times hearns put him down, and once or twice more when he remained on his feet. and yes it was a robbery, only a moron would score that fight even, leonard himself said he lost.

i have watched this fight 15-20 times and the closest ive scored it i had hearns winning by 4 points, that was giving leonard every round he could possibly get. it was a blatant robbery, i think when a fighter admitts he lost and stands by that for 20+ years its safe to say he got beat.

hagler-leonard was too close to be called a robbery but to say it was obvious that ray won is retarded. i had hagler winning myself but it could have gone either way.

you seem extremely biased and/or ignorant as to how to score a fight.
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#16
Old 06-09-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
Aside from the Robin Reid fight where it was clear that he didn't deserve to win, I disagree that Ottke got the benefit of the doubt in his home country and that on neutral grounds they might have gone the other way, because it wasn't like the crowd would go crazy whenever he threw a punch.
Maybe not crowd, but some judges apparently did . It's naive to think that only reason for hometown guys to get a lot of questionable decision is influence of the crowd. And do I need to remind you of Germans reputation in that case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
From what I have seen they were just as quiet as the Japanese boxing fans are. In a lot of his fights he just carefully outboxed the opponent in a close victory. He was very careful and hesistant in the ring which meant that his fights usually had several close rounds but I wouldn't say that he was favoured because his first fight with Brewer and the fight with Byron Mitchell should have been unanimous decision victories in my opinion. Not split ones and the verdict against Rudy Markussen should have been wider than it was. There's still a few Ottke fights I haven't seen though.
His first with Brewer could've gone either way. I scored it for Charles. His fight with Glen Johnson was the same thing, I also scored it for Glen. If those fights took place somewhere else, where judges would be free of any infuences, he would have very little chance for getting decision in both of those fights(especially the first one), as most judges will go with the aggressor. Ottke always knew that judges are on his side, so he didn't have to worry about winning rounds big, he knew if he'll keep it close enough, he's the one who will most likely get the benefit of a doubt. That's a huge adventage when other guy have to go hard every round.
That scorecard against him when he fought Byron was crazy indeed though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
I guess part of it depends on how you define a robbery. I look at it as being a fight where one guy won at least 8 rounds and got jobbed.
That definition is just wrong. It doesn't work like that, that's illogicall. If you say that fighter need to win 8 rounds to claim he was robbed, then it's like you allowed judges to robb fighter of 1 round in a fight. Numbers of rounds that you need to win a fight(in fight without knockdowns or point deductions) is 7, so if you won 7 rounds clearly, you're the winner, end of story.

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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
I completely disagree with your assesment of Sturm-Macklin. In my opinion, calling that fight a robbery is like saying that Mike McCallum was robbed in the first James Toney fight or that Johnny Tapia dominated Paulie Ayala in their fights.
Both those decision were perfectly legit, I scored Toney - McCallum fight for James by 1 point and Ayala beat Tapia clearly, it just that terrible Showtime team from 1990's and early 2000's couldn't see which punches were blocked by Ayala and tricked people into suppose Tapia victory. Those guys were ridiculous in Tyson - Ruddock and Ricardo Lopez - Rosendo Alvarez fights as well. People may ***** about Judging in boxing sometimes, but generally judges have much better sense of what's going on in that ring than 90% of fans and journalists.

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Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
Can you make a good argument that he did enough to win the fight? Absolutley. But can you honestly give me 7 or 8 rounds that he won unequivocally? Absolutley not. It was a very close fight. Macklin won most of the first 6 rounds and Sturm won most of, if not all the last 6 rounds. I had Sturm winning by 116-113 and I think at best Macklin you can give Macklin 7 rounds. Any more than that is a stretching of reality, at least in my humble opinion. Ive seen several more controversial fights.
Looking at your scorecards I know what your problem is, you're not giving fighters credit for body shots. That's why you had Floyd clearly above Castillo(I believe), you gave Cotto only 1 round against Mayweather and now you say Sturm beat Macklin. Body shot is just as much a landed punch as head shot, if it does more damage than shots to the head then you have to give fighter credit for that.
You can't win the fight fighting the way Sturm was in 7 out of 12 rounds on that fight. He let Macklin work on him for 2 and a half minutes and answering with couple jabs and slapping right hands. If you want to win round with couple punches against busy opponent, you need to hurt him and Macklin through most parts was just walking through Sturms punches.
I thought it was very easy fight to score, with 7 clear round to Macklin(1,2,3,7,8,9,11) and 5 clear rounds to Sturm (4,5,6,10,12).
But if you want to convince me any of those Macklins rounds could've gone to German, than tell me which one and I can watch it again.
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#17
Old 06-09-2012, 10:18 AM
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are you on crack? leonard was badly hurt both times hearns put him down, and once or twice more when he remained on his feet. and yes it was a robbery, only a moron would score that fight even, leonard himself said he lost.

i have watched this fight 15-20 times and the closest ive scored it i had hearns winning by 4 points, that was giving leonard every round he could possibly get. it was a blatant robbery, i think when a fighter admitts he lost and stands by that for 20+ years its safe to say he got beat.

hagler-leonard was too close to be called a robbery but to say it was obvious that ray won is retarded. i had hagler winning myself but it could have gone either way.

you seem extremely biased and/or ignorant as to how to score a fight.
Haha, right.
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#18
Old 06-09-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
You're crazy. Chisora clearly won that fight.
The only punches Chisora landed consistently were meaningless body shots and looping right hands that are half blocked and were only noticeable because Helenius' hair was wet.
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#19
Old 06-09-2012, 10:28 AM
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Haha, right.
ray had his moments, big moments. but overall hearns was in control of the vast majority of rounds, landing cleaner, harder punches in higher numbers. out boxing him, outpunching him and outfighting him.

why else would ray say hearns won? to be a nice guy?

Haha, right.
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#20
Old 06-09-2012, 10:32 AM
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ray had his moments, big moments. but overall hearns was in control of the vast majority of rounds, landing cleaner, harder punches in higher numbers. out boxing him, outpunching him and outfighting him.

why else would ray say hearns won? to be a nice guy?

Haha, right.
It was tough fight that he might've felt he lost, I think it's rather understandable that after close fight with 2 knockdowns against him he might've felt that he's not going to get a decision. Later he admitted that, not a proof really.

Last edited by Mastrangelo; 06-09-2012 at 10:53 AM.
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