Watching that old Pacquiao ko highlight, young Pac-Man didnt seem destined greatness

[Roman Moreno]

Originally Posted by Fetta

No i dont think so. He was on his way but before Ariza..No. But we will never know

Yes he was a HOF'er before Ariza came on board. It is ridiculous to say he wasn't.

Before Ariza he was already a 4 division champ.

Before Ariza he was already 3 division lineal champ.

Before Ariza he was the first fighter in the history of the sport. To win a lineal Flyweight title and lineal featherweight title. And, those are 2 of the original 8 weight-classes. That's over 100 years of history.

Beat arguably the best fighter in 4 different divisions while skipping 2 whole divisions before Ariza came on the team.

Had a win over an ATG in his prime in Barrera. Dominating victory.

Had wins over HOF'er JMM. And, wins over top rated Sasakul and Ledwaba.

He had already accomplished historic feats before Ariza came on board.

"We will never know"? No. We do know. Only some like to hate or be ignorant to the fact.

[Roman Moreno]

Originally Posted by therealpugilist

I see what you are saying about training conditions but alot of fighters in the past came up in similar or worse conditions and showed signs of greatness early on in their careers....until recently most fighters were from poverty stricken areas with ransack gyms in the US and a guy who is so called a "trainer" just because he has a towel over his shoulder


I will say though his conditions improved he did look healthier went up from fly all the way to junior featherweight but was still a one trick poney until quite recently.....jab, left hand, bounce.....repeat

Did you see greatness in Hopkins?

[Roman Moreno]

Originally Posted by SoggyLungs

some of pac's best wins and fights were before alex ariza..and by the time ariza came along pac was already a champ in 4 different divisions and a lineal champ in 3 divisions (something not many fighters have accomplished).

While skipping two whole divisions in the process. Not counting a destruction of a prime ATG and a HOF'er. But, yet he wasn't special? GTFOH.

[therealpugilist]

Originally Posted by Roman Moreno

Did you see greatness in Hopkins?

Hopkins always had the skills, saw some of his early fights, he had good defense and was alot more aggressive than he is now although still a good counterpuncher...his competition defending that IBF belt was garbage tho

[Roman Moreno]

Originally Posted by therealpugilist

Hopkins always had the skills, saw some of his early fights, he had good defense and was alot more aggressive than he is now although still a good counterpuncher...his competition defending that IBF belt was garbage tho

OK, now answer my question...Did you see greatness in Hopkins.

[Big_L]

he beat barrera twice, morales two out of three, and marquez before ariza came into the picture. 3 of the greatest fighters to ever step in a boxing ring. some of yall will say anything to discredit a man.

[DTMB]

Originally Posted by therealpugilist

yea i know, but most fighters that eventually become professional greats, you see the signs while their in the amatuers or early on in their pro careers....For example everyone new Sugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Michael Spinks, Roy Jones, their are some that werent the best ams....like Trinidad but we knew he'd be special

Manny kinda came out of no where...I guess thats where the phenomenon comes from

Originally Posted by Fetta

Cause he didnt become "great" till Ariza joined before the Diaz fight and his quick climb through the weights and champions. I know not the place and dont want to start a back and forth again but thats how i feel and thats what i saw.

Pac's been top 10 p4p in the entire sport since 2003.

If you followed boxing you would never say he came out of nowhere. Now as far as him being a cash cow ppv star then yes. Then again, in boxing all it takes is one fight. The oscar fight did that. Just like with floyd.

[Fetta]

Originally Posted by Roman Moreno

He might have looked faster cuz' he was fight slower fighters. But, he was "faster" his endurance was just as awesome before Ariza came. Maybe you just didn't like he style and maybe that is what you're basing it of...But, Pac had that "it". Whether or not he was seen as arguably the greatest fighter of his era is different. But, was he special at the lower weights before Ariza. Yes he was. Scoring a come from behind KO against respectable experience vet in Sasakul at the age of 19 it's pretty special, to do skip 2 whole divisions and go up to the third and beat arguably the best 122lber in just 3 weeks notice is pretty special. And, lets not even mention to what he did to an ATG PRIME Barrera.

Now it's true that no one saw him becoming arguably the greatest fighter of his era. No one probably saw this. But, if you didn't see something special in Pac it's either you didn't follow the lower weights or just didn't care for his brawling style. But, he was a HOF'er before Ariza was part of the team.

Ok if you think so. Many think it but im not one. I watched him at the lower weights and thought hes a very good fighter but not a HOFer (yet) or someone that could rise and litterally destroy bigger guys. Then Ariza came on and he exploded....fast. And yes for me there was a cloud, even before mayweather talking, cause the rise was just to fast and the power and speed was to extreme all of the sudden. He was fast and strong but not this fast or strong.

MAB was a good win and i have stated that but that cloud over him is way to thick for me now to think otherwise. Many athletes have had that "it" factor and a little something extra threw them into "godlike" status. Now i didnt see the "it" factor in Pac but it felt like a little something extra to me.

To each his own i guess

[DTMB]

Originally Posted by Roman Moreno

Yes he was a HOF'er before Ariza came on board. It is ridiculous to say he wasn't.

Before Ariza he was already a 4 division champ.

Before Ariza he was already 3 division lineal champ.

Before Ariza he was the first fighter in the history of the sport. To win a lineal Flyweight title and lineal featherweight title. And, those are 2 of the original 8 weight-classes. That's over 100 years of history.

Beat arguably the best fighter in 4 different divisions while skipping 2 whole divisions before Ariza came on the team.

Had a win over an ATG in his prime in Barrera. Dominating victory.

Had wins over HOF'er JMM. And, wins over top rated Sasakul and Ledwaba.

He had already accomplished historic feats before Ariza came on board.

"We will never know"? No. We do know. Only some like to hate or be ignorant to the fact.

exactly.

dont let that old school avi fool you. He's highly ignorant & stupid pretending to be some sage. All he does is hate on pac. Total Waste of time.

[therealpugilist]

Originally Posted by DTMB

Pac's been top 10 p4p in the entire sport since 2003.

If you followed boxing you would never say he came out of nowhere. Now as far as him being a cash cow ppv star then yes. Then again, in boxing all it takes is one fight. The oscar fight did that. Just like with floyd.

I been watching boxing for a long time....he came out of no where because he had no following, already had two kayo losses to lesser fighters and the Ledwaba fight was impressive but he didnt hit the big scene until he upset Barrera.....Manny has been a pro since 1996....thats 7 years Mayweather had been fighting big fights on HBO since 1998...its not the same, people heard of Mayweather and saw him being a good pro early on in his career