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#211
Old 05-01-2012, 09:49 PM
Mintcar923
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Originally Posted by res View Post
Almost all of them, but in this particular case I was talking about your analogy that suggested that it was just as sensible to state that Montel Griffin was past his prime when he fought Roy Jones as to say that Roy was past his prime when he fought Hopkins the second time. The Hopkins-Jones argument is weak and circular, but at least it isn't bizarre like your others.





Griffin fought his entire career at lightheavy, Spinks had 3 opponents at Heavyweight (and avoided the mandatory with Tony Tucker). Sorry, but that isn't enough to prove that he was legit heavyweight.

Spinks was one of he greatest lightheavies of all time, so the issue was NOT that Tyson was out of his league technically, it was that Tyson was too big for him.
Spinks may not have had a lot of fights at heavy. But, he was there for a couple years time. Hell, Evander won the heavyweight title two years after he moved up. Spinks had weighed 212 and Tyson perhaps round 217. Tyson was too big? Also, for the record guys have beaten other guys who were 30 pounds heavier. Size can be a factor but it isn't necessarily the deciding factor every fight. Holyfield established himself against many guys considerably bigger. Tommy Hearns moved from welterweight to light heavy and was still successful. Furthermore, my stating that Griffin was shot in the 2nd Jones fight was just a theory, not a fact. Perhaps, after having all those "tough" fights pre-Roy he may've not have been himself that night. Who knows? I'm just trying to be fair and open-minded. I'm a Roy fan but i'm not tryin to come across as a Roy nuthugger. I think some people like you just plain misunderstand me sometimes...
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#212
Old 05-03-2012, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by res View Post
Why did you use the word "beat" for Toney and "outpoint " for Hopkins? He beat both in UDs that were decisive, and in bouts where it was pretty obvious that he basically controlled the fights.

He koed undefeated light heavyweight champion Montel Griffin (who had defeated James Toney twice) in 1 round like he was a bum.

He koed 2 time light heavyweight champ Virgil Hill with a BODY SHOT in the 4th round.

He went for a decade without a fight that was even competitive, and when he finally lost it was pretty obvious that he was shot given the quality of some of the opponents in his subsequent losses..
this is bs. he was not shot. he had a terrible performance after losing weight. he then hired mackie shilstone and was in great condition for the 2nd tarver fight. he was shot after the ko not before it.

Im sorry you don't go from your greatest performance to completely shot in a year from weight loss. a brutal ko yeah but not weight loss. his fans dont want to accept that he was ktfo close to his prime and it counts in his atg ranking.

tarver could have ko'd him if they fought 5 years earlier too.
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#213
Old 05-03-2012, 02:08 AM
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I don't consider the Tarver kayo out of Roy's prime, or at least not by much. Anyway, it was so early in the fight that stamina and durability hadn't really come into play. That shot Tarver landed was so awkward that it could have happened at any point in Roy's career. If I remember correctly, Roy grazed Tarver with a shot that helped Tarver sort of hop into the perfect spot to throw a haymaker, and then Roy half-landed a hook that left his own chin stuck in the air. It was sort of a freakish turn of events that played perfectly into Tarver's hands.
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#214
Old 05-03-2012, 03:34 AM
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Im sorry you don't go from your greatest performance to completely shot in a year from weight loss. a brutal ko yeah but not weight loss.
lol its not just the weight loss its the weight lose combined with being 35 years old and in his 50th pro fight. Roy was finished after the Ruiz fight. No one in their right mind thinks Tarver would of stood any chance against the Roy Jones of the Clinton Woods fight. Roy would of dominated Tarver just like he did to everybody.
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#215
Old 05-03-2012, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SCtrojansbaby View Post
lol its not just the weight loss its the weight lose combined with being 35 years old and in his 50th pro fight. Roy was finished after the Ruiz fight. No one in their right mind thinks Tarver would of stood any chance against the Roy Jones of the Clinton Woods fight. Roy would of dominated Tarver just like he did to everybody.
No, he wasnt. He was a little bit past prime, but still a top level fighter
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#216
Old 05-03-2012, 06:52 AM
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Im sorry you don't go from your greatest performance to completely shot in a year from weight loss. a brutal ko yeah but not weight loss. his fans dont want to accept that he was ktfo close to his prime and it counts in his atg ranking.

tarver could have ko'd him if they fought 5 years earlier too.
You're grossly simplifying the issue.

There's different types of weight loss. To keep it relatively simple, we'll break it into 3 categories: Losing fat, losing water, and losing muscle.

Losing fat is what people with normal or high body fat %s do when we start to exercise. Roy Jones is a professional athlete. His body fat, after he went up to heavyweight, will still have been no more than 15% (which is very, very low), probably less.

Losing water is what weight drainers do. You can typically lose 10-15lbs maximum, then you can go without food as well, so you can get that up to 20lbs like Brandon Rios does, but that's extreme and very punishing. I can't see Roy Jones doing that.

Then there's the last category, losing muscle. This is what Roy Jones had to do to make the light heavyweight limit. This is very unpredictable, where does the muscle go from? How do you lose it? You can't just run it off. Does the muscle go from your arms, your legs, your neck?

When Roy Jones returned to light heavy, he no longer had the reflexes. He no longer had that fluid movement that was required for his style. His fast shots became lurching reaches. His head twist to roll with punches became an eyes closed "on the chin". At 35, already bound to be suffering the effects of aging, to lose muscle like that will have had serious complications related to other aspects of his body. He needed way more than the year he had to drop that weight for those fights.

Roy did briefly regain some speed after his body re-acclimatized to the lower weight. You saw it against Jeff Lacey and Omar Sheik, although it could be argued that he just looked fast in contrast. After those fights, he started to look old in fights. His final fight, against Lebedev, he looked like an old man, with flesh around his waist and seemed slow and ponderous - and still managed to buzz Lebedev in the 9th, who is a very weak champion IMHO.

Roy's biggest mistake was going back to light heavy. He should have brought Tarver up to cruiserweight or just chased a cruiserweight title and given himself time to settle back down to any light heavy challenges. He would be retired as an ATG by now, with just perhaps a pair of losses to Tarver and JC on points on his record.
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#217
Old 05-03-2012, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Buck View Post
I don't consider the Tarver kayo out of Roy's prime, or at least not by much. Anyway, it was so early in the fight that stamina and durability hadn't really come into play. That shot Tarver landed was so awkward that it could have happened at any point in Roy's career. If I remember correctly, Roy grazed Tarver with a shot that helped Tarver sort of hop into the perfect spot to throw a haymaker, and then Roy half-landed a hook that left his own chin stuck in the air. It was sort of a freakish turn of events that played perfectly into Tarver's hands.
In his prime, Roy was gone well before that shot landed. He didn't hang around to get hit. The ability to land his shots then just move away as if his opponent was fighting in slow motion, leaving them to hit air, that Roy was gone by the time he fought Tarver.
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#218
Old 05-03-2012, 07:59 AM
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roy's level fell off a cliff when he moved back down from heavyweight, he'd probably have been better off staying up there for a few fights v the likes of holyfield/byrd/toney/rahman or simply retiring. He was never the same when he moved back down, his speed and reflexes were gone. I don't think anybody in their right mind would suggest tarver or johnson could have beaten pre heavyweight Roy
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#219
Old 05-03-2012, 12:53 PM
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In his prime, Roy was gone well before that shot landed. He didn't hang around to get hit. The ability to land his shots then just move away as if his opponent was fighting in slow motion, leaving them to hit air, that Roy was gone by the time he fought Tarver.
Like with Lou Del Valle?

I'm sticking with my guns here. Roy was doing fine until the knockout. He threw that left hook that left his chin in the air.
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#220
Old 05-03-2012, 12:57 PM
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It's the same f-ing shot Tarver landed. And you're telling me it couldn't happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp7h37fMneg
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