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#21
Old 04-23-2012, 02:02 PM
hhascup
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Originally Posted by New England View Post
henry hascup is a well respected historian and a member of the BWAA

he's also in his 60's

these things take time. serious time. tens of thousands of hours of reading and film


get cracking
Thanks, But actually I'm not a member of the BWAA But I was appointed as their Boxing Historian by their President Jack Hirsch. I have been the President of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame for over 26 years and their Historian for over 30. I am the Historian of the New York Boxing Hall of Fame, Ring 8 & Ring 25. I am a charter member of IBRO. I am on 2 voting committees, the modern and old-timers, for the IBHOF. I am also an editor for BoxRec.

You can google my name to see the rest.

Thanks again, Henry Hascup
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#22
Old 04-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Anthony342
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Originally Posted by hhascup View Post
Thanks, But actually I'm not a member of the BWAA But I was appointed as their Boxing Historian by their President Jack Hirsch. I have been the President of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame for over 26 years and their Historian for over 30. I am the Historian of the New York Boxing Hall of Fame, Ring 8 & Ring 25. I am a charter member of IBRO. I am on 2 voting committees, the modern and old-timers, for the IBHOF. I am also an editor for BoxRec.

You can google my name to see the rest.

Thanks again, Henry Hascup
COOOOOL. I will most certainly have to do that sometime.
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#23
Old 04-23-2012, 06:01 PM
Nick Name
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Originally Posted by House of Stone View Post
2 If he'd come a tiny bit later patterson would be a little more than a blurb in the history books and 2 Sonny Liston would have appeared even more badass after destroying Rocky in foreman v frazier type style.
I'd put that statement just upside down: I believe that Patterson had more chances to beat Rocky than Liston had. Patterson's speed would have given Marciano more than a worry.
As for Liston, he was no Foreman: he started boxing quite late (at 21), had little amateur experience and rather poor technique despite his dynamite punches. And altho he was much heavier than Marciano, his poor defense would have easily exposed him to Rocky's devastating left hooks and overhand rights. Also, Liston had a superior reach, but poor balance and Marciano could faint very well...
The only chance for Liston to beat Marciano would be by catching Rocky cold in the early rounds I guess.

Last edited by Nick Name; 04-23-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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#24
Old 04-23-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Name View Post
I'd put that statement just upside down: I believe that Patterson had more chances to beat Rocky than Liston had. Patterson's speed would have given Marciano more than a worry.
As for Liston, he was no Foreman: he started boxing quite late (at 21), had little amateur experience and rather poor technique despite his dynamite punches. And altho he was much heavier than Marciano, his poor defense would have easily exposed him to Rocky's devastating left hooks and overhand rights. Also, Liston had a superior reach, but poor balance and Marciano could faint very well...
The only chance for Liston to beat Marciano would be by catching Rocky cold in the early rounds I guess.
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#25
Old 04-23-2012, 06:29 PM
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Ha. Good response to a bizzare post.
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#26
Old 04-23-2012, 06:46 PM
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Ha. Good response to a bizzare post.
I find myself doing that with most of his posts

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#27
Old 04-24-2012, 05:20 AM
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I just stated that Rocky might have suffered Floyds' technique more than Liston's power-punches: what's so bizarre about that?

Patterson had a better technique than Marciano. He was fast, could move on his feet and had a slick defense. He could have given Marciano a hard time.
Patterson could have played on the inside, parrying Marciano's hooks and body shots and countering with his right hands. That could have been a good tactic against Marciano's "all-out" style.

Last edited by Nick Name; 04-24-2012 at 06:43 AM.
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#28
Old 04-24-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hhascup View Post
I put this out before but here it is again:

Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the Top 10 by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in June of 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.


Vingo was not a top 10 contender. He was 16-1-0 when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before he fought Rocky he had only 1 KO, and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut.

Also, before he fought Rocky, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds, Plus he never fought a Main Event. AND he was just 2 days passed his 20th birthday.

Good Prospect, BUT far from a contender.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.


Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 (or 72) bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Ali fought 37 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 32 of them 52.459%

Louis fought 35 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 32 of them 45.07%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.



This includes Light Heavyweight Champions in the percentages as well.
Good post, I think even Tyson fought a higher percentage than Marciano.
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#29
Old 04-24-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Marciano met his #1 contender at a better rate than every champion, ever.
Which came down to fighting 2 guys (and bypassing Valdez). Personally I can't disregard a guy's whole career and just focus on his championship if it is the shortest part of his career, especially if it's because he fought the same guys repeatedly.




...............

Last edited by Omega-Red; 04-24-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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#30
Old 04-24-2012, 03:48 PM
hhascup
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Originally Posted by Omega-Red View Post
Good post, I think even Tyson fought a higher percentage than Marciano.

If you look at who they fought, Tyson did box better opponents.

Tyson fought boxers with an average record of (W) 22.2758 - (L) 3.5 - (D) 0.3 and Rocky fought boxers with an average record of (W) 29.7 - (L) 10.16 - (D) 1.8.

Tyson fought 33 different boxers 36 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another. Marciano fought 13 different boxers 16 times, that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another.


Tyson hit very hard. He had 22 first round knockouts and if you count Peter McNeeley, it would be 23 in his 58 bouts.


Rocky had 11 first round knockouts in 49 bouts.

In Tyson's 52 bouts where he either won or fought a NC, he fought an average of 3.365 rounds, if you count the other bouts which he lost, he fought an average of 3.74 Rounds.

In Marciano's 49 bouts, he averaged 4.9387755 rounds.
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