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#21
Old 04-15-2012, 07:38 PM
BennyST
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Who really cares? He beat Pac's ass. That's all that matters.

I'm surprised at the people saying he wouldn't beat Oscar. I think he would have definitely beaten that version of Oscar.

Margarito too big, though he was so slow and **** by that stage it wouldn't surprise me in the least, Hatton yes, Cotto, I doubt it, etc etc.

Marquez is a natural 126 pound fighter. Pac is a natural 140 pounder. Marquez is 38 and still too small to fight at 140/147. Pac couldn't make 130 or even 135 anymore if he had to, and he's only 32.

People that say these guys are the same size are utterly deluded. Pac moved up because he had to move up. Marquez moved up to chase bigger fights. He could still have been making 126 or 130 all these later. He weighed in nearly at 130 only last year for Kats.

Last edited by BennyST; 04-15-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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#22
Old 04-15-2012, 08:04 PM
hugh grant
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Originally Posted by klipsch speaker View Post
I want to know what you people think.......

Those guys Manny fought since 126
More to the point, could Floyd beat the guys Pac fought? Thats the difference between Pac and the challengers to his p4p king status. Pac has done it, whereas the others we wonder if they could.

Its better to have the wins in the bag, rather than pro claim youd be able to do it like Floyd does.
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#23
Old 04-15-2012, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MANIAC310 View Post
Marquez outpoints the Cotto Pacquiao fought... he was coming off 1 horrible beating and 1 arguable lose to Clottey not to mention the Catchweight

..
On top of that, Cotto didn't even have a trainer, just the guy who held up the mitts to help out.
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#24
Old 04-15-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
.

Marquez is a natural 126 pound fighter. Pac is a natural 140 pounder. Marquez is 38 and still too small to fight at 140/147. Pac couldn't make 130 or even 135 anymore if he had to, and he's only 32.
Even at 135 he was starting to get a muffin top with the sides hanging out, some how he pulls through though.
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#25
Old 04-15-2012, 08:21 PM
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i highly doubt marquez could beat the guys on pac's resume.

he got whooped by pac 3 times and would likely get brutally ko'd by the welterweights on pacquiaos resume
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#26
Old 04-15-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Toyman View Post
i highly doubt marquez could beat the guys on pac's resume.

he got whooped by pac 3 times and would likely get brutally ko'd by the welterweights on pacquiaos resume
I agree, he struggled with past it barrera while were on the subject. Its highly likely hed get knocked out by Pacs heavyhanded opponents, as JMM usually at points of a fight likes to duke it out. He 100% knew he coulndt with Pac, but thats not to say he wouldnt try with other fighters. That would be his undoing and wed likely see him going down like he did in the first Pac .
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#27
Old 04-15-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIAC310 View Post
Cotto- Yes
Marg- Yes
Clottey- Yes
Hatton- Yes
ODLH-NO
Diaz-Yes
Mosley-Yes

not even trolling or exaggerating ..... Pacuiao beat their remains
Nobody will take you serious with your bold comments above
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#28
Old 04-15-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hugh grant View Post
I agree, he struggled with past it barrera while were on the subject. Its highly likely hed get knocked out by Pacs heavyhanded opponents, as JMM usually at points of a fight likes to duke it out. He 100% knew he coulndt with Pac, but thats not to say he wouldnt try with other fighters. That would be his undoing and wed likely see him going down like he did in the first Pac .
thats true - marquez takes a very special approach it seems,, when fighting pac. thats testament to how good pacquiao is - and even then marquez really only won no more than 4 rounds.

i feel quite bad for him knowing he laid it all on the line and gave it his all, only to lose 8-4 to a pacquiao who was having an off night.

Marquez does deserve credit for surviving, even though pac reconfigured his face
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#29
Old 04-16-2012, 01:03 AM
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I am a big Marquez fan. Here are my view points on Marquez. I believe with more limited opponents or strict counter punchers he takes the role of lead fighter. He also takes more risks. He goes for the kill when fighting Diaz's, Katsidis's, Ramos's, Fedchenko's. He does this specially after the Pacquiao fights since he notices that fighting that way gets him more support from the networks and the fans. It means more $$$ in the bank for him. Prior to his Pacquiao encounters he boxed more and was not there to be hit as much.Age plays a factor as well.

Also he has to be the lead fighter with longer rangier effective-counter punchers Mayweather, John. If he does not do this he would be getting tagged all night by a jab trying to counter someone who can attack him from a longer distance (longer arms, fighting taller). We saw some of this in the Fedchenko fight. They are of similar height but Fedchenko fights more straight up in his Euro style. Marquez had to over extend himself while going to attack Fedchenko. Fedchenko could attack more naturally when Marquez wasn't hitting him with combos....

Marquez is there to be hit when he is the lead fighter. He actually takes considerable damage when doing this even though he gets the better of most exchanges. There were some times last night in which Fedchenko actually got the better of the exchanges. In the end his higher power, punch selection, and accuracy won the fight. His ability to adjust to hit where he finds soft spots (open spots to which he feels you are hurt) is incredible. Juan Diaz said it best he is not the heaviest puncher but he is more like a person chopping down a tree.

When he is facing a lead fighter (offensive) he has several advantages as he knows exactly how to move, what punches to throw to counter successfully, and he knows the distance necessary to keep his opponents off balance and uncomfortable (see the Pacquiao vs. Marquez III fight and the Ramos fight). His punching power while not great is good. Roach mentioned one of the best improvements that Marquez made from the second Pacquiao encounter was his punching power. Pacquaio seemed more text book, and some what hesitant because those punches were actually hurting him. (mind you they were accurate clean shots, he can't hurt you with grazing shots like a true power puncher... its his accuracy). His boxing knowledge and ability to adjust win him fights against lead fighters. This is where he looks his most dominant. Even in losing to Pacquiao he looked better than in winning the Fedchenko fight.

Like one poster said if it was based on technique Marquez would win all the fights that Pacquiao has won albeit not in the same spectacular fashion. But boxing is not just skill its also about physical talent.

I like to think of Marquez as an endurance athlete. He has great stamina, and recovery ability. He is also heavy handed for his size. He has above average hand and foot speed.

However he is not an explosive fighter. Guys like Pacquiao, Berto, Mike Tyson, David Haye, and Wladimir Klitschko are explosive fighters. These guys can generate incredible amounts of force and channel it through their hands. They don't usually have incredible endurance, see Berto. These guys would excel more in sprinting than in marathons. These guys actually can put their whole body into the punches. But they need their leverage, and distance to throw. That is why Marquez could negate most of Pacquiao's punching power in the third fight. He finally found out the exact distance that he needed to create to prevent Pacquiao from landing at full force. His face was messed up but there were no knockdowns. Considering what Manny did to Margarito, Marquez was pretty good.

There are other punchers who are heavy handed like Maidana, Rafael Marquez, George Foreman, Vitali Klitschko, and Saul Alvarez who can knock out guys with an Arm punch. These guys are more balanced neither endurance nor explosive. They usually have good stamina if they don't throw each punch as a full on power punch see Maidana. These guys can have a minimal distance and still hurt you. They do have to land though, see Maidana in the Alexander fight very few punches landed flush. They do not need to explode.

I would say Marquez is more of a heavy handed fighter but not on the level of the fighters I named above. I think he would struggle to get the respect of a lot of the fighters Pacquiao was able to defeat. Physically the advantages would be too great for some of those fighters. Also stylistically he would have problems with some of them too.

Anyways if he gets into exchanges with the same versions of the fighters that Pacquiao fought he could probably only handle Hatton, ODLH, and Diaz.

If he fought very defensively without getting into exchanges I could see him having a chance with Cotto, and Mosley.

Ironically Pacquiao's most overlooked wins I think would give Marquez the worst time. I think Clottey, and Margarito would win big against Marquez.



Cotto- MAYBE, Cotto is a good fighter but not on the level of Marquez technically. His only advantage here would be power and lateral movement/footspeed (see Marg II fight). I think with some minor adjustments Marquez takes away the left hand entirely. But can Marquez handle the heat in those small exchanges he likes to do? If Marquez can handle the power I think he can cut him and that can lead to a victory. Cotto's moral goes down when he is cut, and Marquez snaps his punches. He is one of the best skin cutters in my opinion. However I suspect his power is too much, and Cotto's chin is actually too good to be hurt by Marquez.

Marg- NO, I think stylistically it is a tough fight for Marquez. Being smaller he brings down Margs power since has to punch down, but it still might be too much. Could Marquez hurt Margarito enough to slow him down? I don't think so. I don't think even Floyd could slow down a Pre Pacquiao Margarito. PBF would win by pot shotting and not getting hit, but Marquez lacks the foot speed and body movement to do this. Marquez does have a chance though if he can get close. This is not hard since Margarito doesn't use his height and does not have good in fighting skills. Margarito's hand speed is slightly below average. Can Marquez counter in between Marg throwing using body movement? My main reason for thinking this is that Marg (Pre Pac) can only lose to guys who are athletic (foot speed, and hand speed) or strong boxer punchers.

Clottey- NO, I don't think that Marquez could open up the shell guard. Also in this fight he would have to take the role of lead fighter. Clottey is actually a proficient boxer, and he is taller and has decent reach. Clottey would counter Marquez and I think he would lose an ugly UD. To beat Clottey decisively you also need speed, stamina and power. Power to keep him shelled up, stamina to keep unloading, and speed to throw in the few moments he opens up and land on him. I think Marquez lacks the power and speed here.

Hatton- YES, no disrespect here but I think Hatton was always a face first warrior. His power and determination would make it hard for Marquez. I think Marquez stops him late though. Stylistically there i nothing that Hatton could do to stop the combination punches. Also I think Marquez could handle his punch and rough up close tactics, as well as minimize his power easily with distance. Marquez can fight inside as well.

ODLH- MAYBE, I think stylistically this is also a bad match up for Marquez. ODLH has power and he can create range (length and boxing skill). He also has good boxing fundamentals. Can Marquez handle his power? Did ODLH have power at 147 around the same time Pac fought him? I think they have similar attributes physically only that Marquez is the much smaller man.Can Marquez hurt him? I think the key here is how far gone was ODLH here? Was it just that Pacquiao made him look bad? If he was slow and plodding like in that fight I could see a close fight.

Diaz-YES, Diaz was also a face first warrior. He was determined but technically very weak. Where Pacquiao smoked him physically, Marquez could smoke him technically. It would be a bloodier version of the Katsidis fight. I could see Diaz hurting Marquez at points though. I believe Marquez would win but not as spectacular as Pac.

Mosley-MAYBE. I believe the only way to beat Mosley is with boxing ability combined with speed, or with speed and power. Speedy boxers like Winky, or Forrest who would use their height and foot speed to keep Mosley at a distance can win easily. Also Mayweather who with speed and technique was able to negate Mosley's power except in the first 2 rounds. Pacquiao was able to beat him with pure speed and power. After he got Mosley's respect all Mosley did was backpedal. Mosley could not handle Manny. Marquez does not have enough of either here. The problem here is that he packs a great punch, is faster in both hand and feet, even the recent version, than Marquez. I also think he has a much better chin. I still remember him taking those bombs he took from Forrest. Marquez could win a very close fight if he can get Mosley's respect. I don't think he could though. I can more easily see Mosley out muscling small man Marquez.

Sorry for the 10 page post. I just wanted to post my view points. I would love to see a Marquez vs. Cotto/Mosley fights. Even at this point in their careers. Hell I always wanted to see Hatton vs. Mosley too.

NOTE:****My maybes are if Marquez fights a perfect fight...most likely NOS since we don't know how he looks at 147 against a true 147 pounder
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#30
Old 04-16-2012, 01:04 AM
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marquez only beats hatton and diaz
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