Joe Louis vs both Klitschkos

[Spartacus Sully]

Originally Posted by nomadman

How do you see both fights panning out?

Apologies if you've already posted it, just refer me to the quote if so.

i see louis vrs vitali as a decent fight a few flash knock downs for louis in the situation where he dosnt want to take more then 1 punch so he just goes down with the first punch instead of manning up through it.

just as well i see a few knock downs of vitali but unlike louis he trys to muscle through it and takes more then one hit per knock down accumulating alot of damagae with each KD.

by the 6th round vitalis got way to much damage and is running low on stamina with having high punch rate but low connect rate, joe finishes him off with some hooks to the body then backing off and finishing it up with a short right as vitali falls for the trap and follows joe as he backs off.


vs wlad, after about 1 min wlad trys to lean on joe, joe knocks him arms aside side steps, as wlad follows after joe a short right ends the fight after 1 min 42 seconds.

[Spartacus Sully]

Originally Posted by nomadman

Are you factoring in Wlad's superior reactive speed and ability to control distance here? I think that negates a lot of his perceived chin weakness, since he very rarely gets hit flush nowadays, and even then usually only one shot at a time.

I'll never argue that Wlad has an iron chin, but IMO people put too much importance on his three (rather brutal) stoppage losses, and draw erroneous conclusions from there. Haye was only the latest in a number of fighters post-Brewster who was supposed to KO Wlad early with the first shot he landed. He hardly landed at all, and when he did it didn't end things as predicted. This isn't the first time this has happened, yet lessons are never learned from it.

Haye and Louis are different fighters of course, and I'm not comparing them, but the manner in which they are/were supposed to win is eerily similar to any number of former opponents. "All it takes is one shot..." "Just one shot and it's all over..." etc. You can argue that Louis is a harder puncher than Haye, or Sanders, or Peter, or Brewster, but there were a number of fighters Louis faced who weren't KTFO by the first good shot he landed, nor the second or third... fighters like 175lb Billy Conn, who ate a number of solid hooks, rights and uppercuts before succumbing late in the fight.

To think that he just drops Wlad cold with one shot is unrealistic IMO.

If Louis stops Wlad it'll be from a combination after he stuns him against the ropes and either the ref doesn't allow Wlad to clinch or Louis is able to fight his way out of the clinch. I think that's unrealistic too, but a mite more probable.

the problem with comparing a lighter fighter to a heavy fighter is in their ability to roll with punches, similar to how ali lasted 8 rounds with foreman.

because foreman was a slower but powerful puncher, it was easier for ali to roll with the punches, so he could take 8 rounds with out ever getting hit squarely.

if he was in there with a faster punching lighter fighter that relied more on distance and speed then power, like louis, he never would have lasted 8 rounds.

this same instance occurs with conn and louis or tunney and dempsey.

some one thats 247 could see a punch 5 secs before its thrown and still not roll it as good as conn or tunney.

its very very likely that one punch from louis could knock wlad out cold, and its very unlikely that wlad could take a clean solid counter from louis with out hitting the canvas.

[ONECRAK]

Originally Posted by kendom

So saw this thread on ESB and decided to take it over to the history section. How would Louis do against both Klitschkos, would he beat both, lose to one and not the other?. Personally I think he beats both.

c'mon i cant believe you just did that one

[nomadman]

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

the problem with comparing a lighter fighter to a heavy fighter is in their ability to roll with punches, similar to how ali lasted 8 rounds with foreman.

because foreman was a slower but powerful puncher, it was easier for ali to roll with the punches, so he could take 8 rounds with out ever getting hit squarely.

if he was in there with a faster punching lighter fighter that relied more on distance and speed then power, like louis, he never would have lasted 8 rounds.

this same instance occurs with conn and louis or tunney and dempsey.

some one thats 247 could see a punch 5 secs before its thrown and still not roll it as good as conn or tunney.

its very very likely that one punch from louis could knock wlad out cold, and its very unlikely that wlad could take a clean solid counter from louis with out hitting the canvas.

Lighter fighters are generally able to roll punches better, though it's only one factor in being able to do so, the others being style, stance, instincts and general quickness of reflexes. Conn was able to roll with Louis's shots better than someone like, say, Galento or Simon, but he was still taking some fairly solid looking punches, including a number of uppercuts which are almost impossible for a shorter fighter to "roll" with. His chin played a big part in keeping him in the fight, as much as his heart and general skill.

While Wlad's a big man, he's also surprisingly quick on his feet and has the type of intense concentration to read a punch coming and react to it instantly. His quickness in this regard isn't instantly noticeable since he fights from such a wide stance and hardly seems to move out of his jabbing range at all. He's not a dancer or a mover, that's for sure. But the very fact that he's able to maintain his distance regardless of what his opponent is doing speaks volumes as to the quality of his footwork.



Look at how quickly he closes distance with Haye, but keeps that distance throughout the fight. Every time Haye tries to get on the inside Wlad either takes a step back and to the side or clinches him up. Look also to how he reacts to the punches, rolling away from the shot or skipping back and then straight back into punching range again.

His neurotic level of concentration and unwillingness to commit to any punch that may leave him open to a counter makes Wlad a very tricky customer indeed. Fighters are forced to either box him on the outside (a suicidal proposition) or work their way inside which, if they manage to do that, gets them clinched and leant on before they're able to muster a solid combination attack. Otherwise they're relegated to throwing a big shot out of leftfield and hoping to catch him flush, which even if it does happen doesn't instantly result in KO.

Maybe I have a naive faith in Wlad as something other than a mush-chinned fraidy cat who wilts under the slightest brush of his be-whiskered jowls. But I'd also like to think that my belief is backed up by at least a bit of evidence from his prior fights.

[Spartacus Sully]

Originally Posted by nomadman

Lighter fighters are generally able to roll punches better, though it's only one factor in being able to do so, the others being style, stance, instincts and general quickness of reflexes. Conn was able to roll with Louis's shots better than someone like, say, Galento or Simon, but he was still taking some fairly solid looking punches, including a number of uppercuts which are almost impossible for a shorter fighter to "roll" with. His chin played a big part in keeping him in the fight, as much as his heart and general skill.

While Wlad's a big man, he's also surprisingly quick on his feet and has the type of intense concentration to read a punch coming and react to it instantly. His quickness in this regard isn't instantly noticeable since he fights from such a wide stance and hardly seems to move out of his jabbing range at all. He's not a dancer or a mover, that's for sure. But the very fact that he's able to maintain his distance regardless of what his opponent is doing speaks volumes as to the quality of his footwork.



Look at how quickly he closes distance with Haye, but keeps that distance throughout the fight. Every time Haye tries to get on the inside Wlad either takes a step back and to the side or clinches him up. Look also to how he reacts to the punches, rolling away from the shot or skipping back and then straight back into punching range again.

His neurotic level of concentration and unwillingness to commit to any punch that may leave him open to a counter makes Wlad a very tricky customer indeed. Fighters are forced to either box him on the outside (a suicidal proposition) or work their way inside which, if they manage to do that, gets them clinched and leant on before they're able to muster a solid combination attack. Otherwise they're relegated to throwing a big shot out of leftfield and hoping to catch him flush, which even if it does happen doesn't instantly result in KO.

Maybe I have a naive faith in Wlad as something other than a mush-chinned fraidy cat who wilts under the slightest brush of his be-whiskered jowls. But I'd also like to think that my belief is backed up by at least a bit of evidence from his prior fights.

unless your the dude getting punched its very hard to tell how clean a punch is.

the predictability of wlad that you point out, improves my argument that hes robotic, and can be seen as quite a weakness.

wlads readiness to clinch over backing away is one of the largest weaknesses of wlad, if youve seen loe louis fight youve obviously seen louis's incredibly ability to use head movement and his arms to tangle up his opponents arms and land devastating blows over the the attempted clinch.

and my point still remains, a lighter fighter can roll better then a heavier fighter, and even if the lighter fighter dosnt try to roll, their head just naturally moves away faster then the head of a 6'6" giant.

like hang a basket ball from a rope and punch it, then hang a medicine ball from a rope and punch it. which one to do you connect with more? the med ball, it moves away slower allowing you to more efficiently transfer the force from your punch into the object being punched.

this is what they mean by the bigger they are the harder they fall, its a statement implying that the bigger a person is the easier it is to solidly connect with the person compared to a lighter person that naturally rolls with a punch let alone when they try to to roll with the punch.

so not only is wlad going to have great difficulties rolling with louis's punches, louis at 196 is going to have an extreme advantage in rolling wlads punches.

[nomadman]

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

unless your the dude getting punched its very hard to tell how clean a punch is.

True. Sometimes a solid chinned fighter will get rattled by an innocuous looking shot after taking rounds of bombs right in the grill. However, it's not totally impossible. Look at a fighter like Toney or Chambers. Though they get hit hard, Toney moreso than in the past, you can still tell they're rolling with the main force of the shot by the way they move and react. Then look at Povetkin or Adamek. They get hit flush and show that hurt, and neither fighter is exactly weak-chinned, though Adamek's chin is far less of an asset than it was at the lower weights.

Likewise with Wlad you can tell he's rolling with the shots, not as well as Chambers, Toney, Byrd etc but he's certainly not taking the punches flush. Hell, if he was he'd have been decked again long before now. Haye certainly had the power to knock him out, as did Peter, and Brewster and even old man Rahman. Yet the punches they landed (and landed they did) had very little of an effect. If Wlad wasn't rolling with those shots then his chin is a hell of a lot better than we think.

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

the predictability of wlad that you point out, improves my argument that hes robotic, and can be seen as quite a weakness.

Maybe if you're talking mindset. But not by your definition of the word, which was primarily focusing on the way he punches and moves. Wlad is very limited in what he does in the ring, but that "predicatability" is something of a two-edged sword. On paper you know exactly what you're getting. Yet in the ring good fighters, smart fighters, like Byrd and Chambers simply can't deal with it. It's easy to look at their failings as the reason why, but when fighter after fighter demonstrates the same befuddlement and mental shutdowns then at some point you've got to start crediting the one doing the befuddling.

When you're that narrow in what you're trying to do, you can focus a hell of a lot more on the nuances. Look at the things Wlad does with his left hand when he's fighting, look at the movement of his feet and upper body, look at the way he stalks his opponent, never allowing them to get comfortable. His gameplans are generally all the same, with minor but important tweaks, yet they're gameplans which perfectly maximise his physical attributes and minimise his weaknesses.

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

wlads readiness to clinch over backing away is one of the largest weaknesses of wlad, if youve seen loe louis fight youve obviously seen louis's incredibly ability to use head movement and his arms to tangle up his opponents arms and land devastating blows over the the attempted clinch.

Wlad doesn't just clinch in lieu of backing up. He does both depending on the situation. A lot of the time when he does clinch it'll be after throwing a right hand, especially if the opponent ducks or dips to avoid it, allowing him to push himself down on them and totally negate their offence. Even when he clinches as a defensive reaction he's generally tall enough to be able to drape his arms over his opponent's back and shoulders rather than just wrap them around their neck (which would still allow them to torque their body into shots). Like a lot of Wlad's game nowadays he minimises any chance of his opponents to hurt him.

Of course it's possible Louis could fight his way out of the clinch or generate enough leverage whilst being held to seriously hurt Wlad with an overhand or hook. He manhandled Carnera very well, spinning him and throwing him against the ropes, and the similar sized Chambers was likewise able to lift and throw Wlad in the early rounds when he clinched. The height and heaviness alone won't be a problem. Nor will the physical strength. The difference will be in the control of balance, centre of gravity, the way in which the clinching is done and initiated, and most importantly the response afterwards.

It's certainly not a sure thing either way.

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

and my point still remains, a lighter fighter can roll better then a heavier fighter, and even if the lighter fighter dosnt try to roll, their head just naturally moves away faster then the head of a 6'6" giant.

like hang a basket ball from a rope and punch it, then hang a medicine ball from a rope and punch it. which one to do you connect with more? the med ball, it moves away slower allowing you to more efficiently transfer the force from your punch into the object being punched.

That's assuming the opponent is a completely stationary target with a relative headsize commensurate with his bodysize. An unrealistic assumption.

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

this is what they mean by the bigger they are the harder they fall, its a statement implying that the bigger a person is the easier it is to solidly connect with the person compared to a lighter person that naturally rolls with a punch let alone when they try to to roll with the punch.

Like a lot of idioms that's a generalisation. I certainly doubt they had an athlete of Wlad's abilities in mind when they coined that, not to mention all the figurative meanings of the expression.

Originally Posted by Spartacus Sully

so not only is wlad going to have great difficulties rolling with louis's punches, louis at 196 is going to have an extreme advantage in rolling wlads punches.

Sorry, I think that's wishful thinking. Louis would get hit more solidly than Wlad because of his style, if nothing else (he also had an enormous melon). Like a lot of fighters from that period, he kept his feet set and his body bent forward to more effectively infight. He kept his lead hand around his midsection and tended to utilise minimal headmovement, preferring to close with his opponents by jabbing his way in; though even this was often unnecessary given many fighters' mutual willingness to lock horns with him.



(bloody excellent highlight by the way)

[Spartacus Sully]

Originally Posted by nomadman

True. Sometimes a solid chinned fighter will get rattled by an innocuous looking shot after taking rounds of bombs right in the grill. However, it's not totally impossible. Look at a fighter like Toney or Chambers. Though they get hit hard, Toney moreso than in the past, you can still tell they're rolling with the main force of the shot by the way they move and react. Then look at Povetkin or Adamek. They get hit flush and show that hurt, and neither fighter is exactly weak-chinned, though Adamek's chin is far less of an asset than it was at the lower weights.

Likewise with Wlad you can tell he's rolling with the shots, not as well as Chambers, Toney, Byrd etc but he's certainly not taking the punches flush. Hell, if he was he'd have been decked again long before now. Haye certainly had the power to knock him out, as did Peter, and Brewster and even old man Rahman. Yet the punches they landed (and landed they did) had very little of an effect. If Wlad wasn't rolling with those shots then his chin is a hell of a lot better than we think.



Maybe if you're talking mindset. But not by your definition of the word, which was primarily focusing on the way he punches and moves. Wlad is very limited in what he does in the ring, but that "predicatability" is something of a two-edged sword. On paper you know exactly what you're getting. Yet in the ring good fighters, smart fighters, like Byrd and Chambers simply can't deal with it. It's easy to look at their failings as the reason why, but when fighter after fighter demonstrates the same befuddlement and mental shutdowns then at some point you've got to start crediting the one doing the befuddling.

When you're that narrow in what you're trying to do, you can focus a hell of a lot more on the nuances. Look at the things Wlad does with his left hand when he's fighting, look at the movement of his feet and upper body, look at the way he stalks his opponent, never allowing them to get comfortable. His gameplans are generally all the same, with minor but important tweaks, yet they're gameplans which perfectly maximise his physical attributes and minimise his weaknesses.



Wlad doesn't just clinch in lieu of backing up. He does both depending on the situation. A lot of the time when he does clinch it'll be after throwing a right hand, especially if the opponent ducks or dips to avoid it, allowing him to push himself down on them and totally negate their offence. Even when he clinches as a defensive reaction he's generally tall enough to be able to drape his arms over his opponent's back and shoulders rather than just wrap them around their neck (which would still allow them to torque their body into shots). Like a lot of Wlad's game nowadays he minimises any chance of his opponents to hurt him.

Of course it's possible Louis could fight his way out of the clinch or generate enough leverage whilst being held to seriously hurt Wlad with an overhand or hook. He manhandled Carnera very well, spinning him and throwing him against the ropes, and the similar sized Chambers was likewise able to lift and throw Wlad in the early rounds when he clinched. The height and heaviness alone won't be a problem. Nor will the physical strength. The difference will be in the control of balance, centre of gravity, the way in which the clinching is done and initiated, and most importantly the response afterwards.

It's certainly not a sure thing either way.



That's assuming the opponent is a completely stationary target with a relative headsize commensurate with his bodysize. An unrealistic assumption.



Like a lot of idioms that's a generalisation. I certainly doubt they had an athlete of Wlad's abilities in mind when they coined that, not to mention all the figurative meanings of the expression.



Sorry, I think that's wishful thinking. Louis would get hit more solidly than Wlad because of his style, if nothing else (he also had an enormous melon). Like a lot of fighters from that period, he kept his feet set and his body bent forward to more effectively infight. He kept his lead hand around his midsection and tended to utilise minimal headmovement, preferring to close with his opponents by jabbing his way in; though even this was often unnecessary given many fighters' mutual willingness to lock horns with him.



(bloody excellent highlight by the way)

nah man you dont get it.