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#121
Old 01-12-2012, 09:29 PM
MonsieurGeorges
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Originally Posted by Pugly! View Post
good post. . . very true. . i guess you could really drive yourself mad trying to ponder on these questions and find some sort of answer or meaning. . . but something went HORRIBLY WRONG in our "progression" (or possibly lack thereof), as a species. . .

you're a smart man! i wish to see more of your posts in the future, good sir.
same to you my friend you started a good discussion

I just don't agree that something went horribly wrong. I think you can say some horrible things about our progression from tribal life to modern society but it was still a "natural" progression if ever there was one. Mankind slips and falls often but we usually learn from it and adapt in some way.

I believe that concepts like environmentalism are in fact the grandchildren of concepts like manifest destiny which said we were endowed with the god given right to move west and tame the wild. It was a novel idea at the time, like environmentalism is today. It represented a frontier and like all frontiers, it was eventually colonised by whoever had the means to do so. As concepts like industrialism and manifest destiny ran their course they were naturally followed by concepts like environmentalism which combine all the wisdom of past mistakes with what goals we hope to reach in the future.

It is possible that only by "hurting" the planet could we ever really learn how it worked with the eventual goal of fixing it. And no one ever set out with intention of "hurting" the planet but it certainly did happen, the Aztecs and Incas used farming methods that destroyed the landscape overtime but it was either that or starve. For the sake of culture world wide, I am glad they kept overfarming if the other option was to die out
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#122
Old 01-12-2012, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedlo1 View Post
same to you my friend you started a good discussion

I just don't agree that something went horribly wrong. I think you can say some horrible things about our progression from tribal life to modern society but it was still a "natural" progression if ever there was one. Mankind slips and falls often but we usually learn from it and adapt in some way.

I believe that concepts like environmentalism are in fact the grandchildren of concepts like manifest destiny which said we were endowed with the god given right to move west and tame the wild. It was a novel idea at the time, like environmentalism is today. It represented a frontier and like all frontiers, it was eventually colonised by whoever had the means to do so. As concepts like industrialism and manifest destiny ran their course they were naturally followed by concepts like environmentalism which combine all the wisdom of past mistakes with what goals we hope to reach in the future.

It is possible that only by "hurting" the planet could we ever really learn how it worked with the eventual goal of fixing it. And no one ever set out with intention of "hurting" the planet but it certainly did happen, the Aztecs and Incas used farming methods that destroyed the landscape overtime but it was either that or starve. For the sake of culture world wide, I am glad they kept overfarming if the other option was to die out

excellent points. . . the fact that humans have the ability to self-reflect is unique.

it does seem like we haven't learned much in regards to war, and killing off each other for material shyt, BUT there are indications that things are getting better, and more people are starting to understand. it's only natural for some people to have a better understanding, and grasp of what "our place" should be, than others. .

we often forget how "young" of a species we are. . . you have given me more optimism about our plight than i previously had. . .

Last edited by UglyPug; 01-12-2012 at 09:50 PM..
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#123
Old 01-12-2012, 10:37 PM
MonsieurGeorges
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Originally Posted by Pugly! View Post
excellent points. . . the fact that humans have the ability to self-reflect is unique.

it does seem like we haven't learned much in regards to war, and killing off each other for material shyt, BUT there are indications that things are getting better, and more people are starting to understand. it's only natural for some people to have a better understanding, and grasp of what "our place" should be, than others. .

we often forget how "young" of a species we are. . . you have given me more optimism about our plight than i previously had. . .
I think our societal progression has greatly changed warfare. War preceded the dawn of man, even nature is like a proxy war or a land grab that never ends. The lone resource animals require to wage war is offspring. If they can breed, they can fight and they come right out of the womb ready to kill on pure instinct. This is the hostile world that man emerged from and look how far we've come.

Practices like slavery, and honest to god raping and pillaging were total societal norms for a very, very long time. Slavery continues to this day in cultures that value their traditions so much that they can ignore the barbarism of it. Slavery was in fact a cornerstone of the ancient economy, workforce and war mobilisation effort. If you are the leader of a tribal group, at the end of a small regional conflict you would take as many slaves as you could feed, slaughter the rest and take the women. The only kind of war we had was hardcore genocide and survivors considered themselves lucky to be slaves.

We have moved so far from those things, men continue to tear each
other into bloody pieces over land and resources but we don't scorch the entire earth afterwards and make life a living hell for the civilians of the region. And no I'm not saying the folks in Irag are living in Disneyland, but they aren't living in Auschwitz either
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