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View Poll Results: who was the better role model?
Joe Louis 32 69.57%
Muhammad Ali 14 30.43%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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#21
Old 12-08-2011, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Slip Stream View Post
Louis was an all American man, and I think the picture of black compliance. Ali stood by his convictions, even to his ultimate detriment, he took a stand, granted it was an unpopular one but he held firm. And the fact that he did makes him my personal hero and mentor.

This is a popular misconception. While Louis may not have been as audacious and vocal as Ali he was nobodies whipping boy and carried himself with quiet dignity.

Ali is a great man, but I believe Louis did more for the plight of his people. Without the intervention of Joe Louis Jackie Robinson doesn't break baseball's color barrier and forever change the game. Without Louis taking a stand black military personal wouldn't have been allowed to see his boxing exhibitions during WWII. Louis not only carried his people on his back going into the second Schmeling fight, but the entire nation. Louis is also responsible for breaking the PGA's color barrier which didn't allow blacks to play on the tour.

Was Joe Louis a quiet man in comparison to Ali? Absolutely. Was he a compliant black man? Absolutely not.
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#22
Old 12-08-2011, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lightsout_finit View Post
Excellent post I still don't get why this kid compared Ali to Hitler....
Frankly i find it disturbing




Quote:
Originally Posted by lightsout_finit View Post
comparing Ali to Hitler shows which way someone like you would vote.....

What I meant was if Ali was f*cked in the ass the way Louis was by the goverment he wouldn't have just took it like a little b*tch to be patriotic.
Would he??

You realise The whole thing with Louis being humble was pre planned at the start of his career as a way to avoid another Jack Johnson situation?
The guy went out of his way to seem more white to be accepted by his nation. To me that's no role model at all, that's called a puppet.

Before you call me a Louis hater or whatever casual fans like you say as a comeback, you should check my previous posts and you'll see i rate the Brown Bomber very highly as a fighter, infact i think he could beat any HW that ever lived other than Ali.....

You should prob learn something before you comment in history section this ain't nsb kid..........



Exactly......

Jesus Christ, from top to bottom both of your condescending shitty post were not only wrong on the premise but they lead you to your ad hominem attack.

Attack a person's character rather than debate the point? Check

Establish your knowledge as superior to mine with your "kid" and "casual fan" remarks? check

Actually argue the point I was trying to make? nope
(which by the way southpaw stinger did perfectly)

and at the end of it all you still have the nerve to tell me to "go learn something before posting in the history section

I didn't compare Ali to Hitler nor did I demonize him, I was showing how speaking your mind doesn't necessarily make you a good role model by giving you an example of another historic figure that also spoke his mind.

how hard is that to understand? I would expect a boxing scholar like yourself to be sharp enough to get an analogy made by a "casual fan" like myself.



btw didn't Muhammad Ali beat his wife publicly because her skirt was too short?

Last edited by MANIAC310; 12-08-2011 at 02:50 AM.
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#23
Old 12-08-2011, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lightsout_finit View Post
Great post.......
When I was a kid at school we were told the story of Ali throwin away his gold medal......
I'm sure you know the story......
And from that point on I thought Ali was the bees knees.


If Ali was around in Louis time when black folks were more "compliant" as you put it, I think Ali would still have been Ali......

Thanks for the thoughts brother, and I hope Ali would still be Ali if he found the boot of oppression squarly on his throat instead of just merely by it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

This is a popular misconception. While Louis may not have been as audacious and vocal as Ali he was nobodies whipping boy and carried himself with quiet dignity.

Ali is a great man, but I believe Louis did more for the plight of his people. Without the intervention of Joe Louis Jackie Robinson doesn't break baseball's color barrier and forever change the game. Without Louis taking a stand black military personal wouldn't have been allowed to see his boxing exhibitions during WWII. Louis not only carried his people on his back going into the second Schmeling fight, but the entire nation. Louis is also responsible for breaking the PGA's color barrier which didn't allow blacks to play on the tour.

Was Joe Louis a quiet man in comparison to Ali? Absolutely. Was he a compliant black man? Absolutely not.
See bro, I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways and from different perspectives. From my perspective, Ali was a gleaming god, a hero crafted from some brilliant light that shone from on high. He made me feel powerful as an African American, he touched my reality in a way Joe Louis simply can't and never will.

Louis carried the weight of an entire nation but it was an entire nation that wouldn’t give his people full rights or access. A nation that allowed human beings to be treated as if they were not as good as the whiter portion and a nation that kills its leaders that have principles and then has the audacity to later enshrine them.

From my perspective Ali was a fierce lion that roared and roared well.
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#24
Old 12-08-2011, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Slip Stream View Post
See bro, I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways and from different perspectives. From my perspective, Ali was a gleaming god, a hero crafted from some brilliant light that shone from on high. He made me feel powerful as an African American, he touched my reality in a way Joe Louis simply can't and never will.

Louis carried the weight of an entire nation but it was an entire nation that wouldn’t give his people full rights or access. A nation that allowed human beings to be treated as if they were not as good as the whiter portion and a nation that kills its leaders that have principles and then has the audacity to later enshrine them.

From my perspective Ali was a fierce lion that roared and roared well.
I can respect your opinion, though mine still differs. Blacks were still treated as second class citizens no matter how loud Ali roared. I respect his stand, his courage and his principles, but Louis actually did something to help his people in important and historical ways. I see Ali as an inspiration, but Louis as the guy who got things done. Just my opinion though.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:19 AM
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
I can respect your opinion, though mine still differs. Blacks were still treated as second class citizens no matter how loud Ali roared. I respect his stand, his courage and his principles, but Louis actually did something to help his people in important and historical ways. I see Ali as an inspiration, but Louis as the guy who got things done. Just my opinion though.
I think one's contribution extends beyond any material effort, such as the instances you named for Mr. Louis. Ali as a person, as a phenomena, as a legend in the annals of boxing history does a tremendous amount of good in the African American community, especially as it pertains to how blacks view themselves.

I can tell you from a personal standpoint being black isn't everything it's cracked up to be on "The Game." In the real world there's so much uncertainty, so much fear, and useless rage, rage that is mitigated sometimes by the solitary light of rebellion and sheer audacity. Ali was all of that for the brave, that fighting spirit, that idea of being loud even if you're seemingly irrelevant.

I think Ali got things done just in a different way. I guess it's a meaningless matter of debate eh?
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#27
Old 12-08-2011, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slip Stream View Post
I think one's contribution extends beyond any material effort, such as the instances you named for Mr. Louis. Ali as a person, as a phenomena, as a legend in the annals of boxing history does a tremendous amount of good in the African American community, especially as it pertains to how blacks view themselves.

I can tell you from a personal standpoint being black isn't everything it's cracked up to be on "The Game." In the real world there's so much uncertainty, so much fear, and useless rage, rage that is mitigated sometimes by the solitary light of rebellion and sheer audacity. Ali was all of that for the brave, that fighting spirit, that idea of being loud even if you're seemingly irrelevant.

I think Ali got things done just in a different way. I guess it's a meaningless matter of debate eh?

No debate my friend, just a different way of viewing things.
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#28
Old 12-08-2011, 08:00 AM
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I'm not going to bring race into it. Just if either or both were good role models.

To be honest, its roughly equal to my mind. Before focussing on both their excellent qualities consider the following:

Joe Louis:

Bad Points
-Advertised cigarettes and smoked (certainly in retirement.....and yes, they knew back then that ciggies were bad for you!).
-Took and had addictions to many illegal drugs, cocaine etc.
-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

Good Points
-Was a clean fighter in the ring.
-Handled himself with the utmost dignity.
-Donated purses to the war effort.


Muhammed Ali

Bad Points
-Ridiculed certain opponents to the point of being deeply hurtful.
-Prolonged fights with Patterson and Terrell almost cruelly.
-Was also a serial womaniser, certainly cheated on his wives.
-Could be termed a 'racist' towards white people.....at least early on in his life. He was very much influenced by the Black Muslims.

Good Points
-He genuinely stood up for his principles and sacrificed his title and prime years.
-He made black people proud to be black.
-He was extremely generous with his money.
-He lives a clean life in respect of drugs, alcohol etc.


Whether you like Louis's more reserved approach or Ali's in your face approach is largely down to opinion. But based on themselves as role models, this is roughly equal.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:17 AM
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One thing I always found interesting was that Joe Louis did everything to separate himself from Jack Johnson saying he was going to be a different kind of champion, then when Ali came he did the exact same thing to Joe, saying that he didn't want to be like Joe, and instead admired Jack Johnson more.

It is said that before Joe Louis fought Max Schmeling, that Jack Johnson tried to get in contact with Joe Louis' camp because he said he wanted to show him a few things to make sure he won the fight, but Louis' camp wanted absolutely nothing to do with Johnson. Which is when Johnson told everyone that Schmeling was going to win and told them how he was going to win, but no one believed him until after it happened.

Back to the topic, I think both guys were exactly what was needed for their time. The world needed a Joe Louis type at that time and then needed an Ali type for his time. Jack Johnson on the other hand was just ahead of his time.

Last edited by La_Vibora; 12-08-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:46 AM
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Ali not personally apologizing to Frazier is the lowest of the low and shows in my opinion he lacked honour at that particular point.
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