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#51
Old 11-09-2011, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
Hey, T, my thing is this...Hops does all that good stuff, etc etc, yes...BUT Chad Dawson with his range, skills, etc etc gives him a look that offsets a lot of that stuff...I doubt Hops could ever "pot shot" Chad as a result...Chad has reflexes, skills, smarts etc that wouldnt see him get shotted...as far as the jab goes, I can only say that a jab doesnt have to actually land to be effective...as long as the motion forces ur opponent to deal with it then its a success in my eyes...Id dare say Hopkins would struggle with the style more than Chad would...and would be forced to do things he wouldnt normally do and certainly wouldnt WANT TO DO...I was very confident going into that fight and nothing I saw in those first two rounds had me rethinking that mindset...TBH...
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Pottshotting basically all that Jean Pascal did to beat Dawson?

I am sure that you have been working with him on those deficiencies, as well as his tendency to be comfortable punching at an opponents gloves instead of trying to punch through them as we saw in both Tarver and Johnson fights.

I agree with you though that Dawson was doing well in the first 2 rounds. The deficiency that I did see however that I could see Hopkins capitalizing on was Chads tendency to turtle up when Hopkins came in with the head to the point where Hopkins could step around him put him off balance without Chad trying to pivot to get in a position where he can punch effectively from. We saw that when Hopkins put Dawson on the Canvas.

There is no doubt that Bernard went into the fight with the intention of making it a SLOW, UGLY, and most importantly ROUGH fight.

We saw him using his head in the first two rounds, and as both you and I know, he does that to frustrate you, to get you mad, and to get you to lose focus.

Judging by how Chad threw Hopkins to the canvas, and how Mad he was in the ring standing in the corner while Hopkins was being attended too, it was working.

Physically, Chad was MUCH stronger. He was clearly getting the better of every attempt of Hopkins to wrestle around with him on the inside, as is clear by how easily he threw Hopkins.

He was also CLEARLY the faster of the two. What worries me though, is that is speed didn't appear to be bothering Hopkins that much, if at all. It wasn't helping him catch Hopkins off guard, it wasn't helping him counter Hopkins, it really wasn't doing much.

Now that could have played out in two ways. Either Hopkins already had Chads timing down, and his speed Never would have come into play as a factor, or it would have shown up down the stretch as Hopkins presumably slowed down.

The most important thing though, and the thing that makes me thing Hopkins had a real chance in the fight is the pace they were fighting at.

All the prefight talk was about how Chad had found the fire, and Chad was gonna throw punches in bunches, and Chad was gonna go for the kill, etc.

His number one priority should have been to elevate the pace to a level high enough to get Hopkins heart rate pushing towards his Lactate threshold, which being much older than Chad, is obviously going to be much lower. He was making now effort to drain Hopkins tank, and this seriously leads me to the conclusion that Dawson was the same fighter he was before. One that can easily be lulled into a slow pace low output fight. That kind of fight will always favor Hopkins.

This fight was always going to be close, it was always going to be a questions of whether Chad Dawson was going to be able to find the Fire and exert his youth on Hopkins, or whether Hopkins was going to be able to tame his Youth an slow the pace to his pace.

From what I saw, he was succeeding in Slowing the pace. Would have have been able to continue to keep the pace slow?

I don't know. All I know is the fight would have been rough. Chad would have come out marked up from headbutts, elbows, and knees. And the fight was never going to be easy to judge.

Chad is a great physical talent, Bernard is a great mental talent. This is an outcome that can be debated for ages much like the classic Boxer vs Puncher debate.

My 2 cents. Keep up the good work Ice, you were definitely telling him the right things in the corner.
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#52
Old 11-09-2011, 01:29 AM
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Thanks Iceman for the answers, appreciated. And i agree with what you said about the jab, it really doesn't have to land if it's maintaining the distance between the two fighters and it's making the fighter on the receiving end react to the motion of the jab, I wasn't notioning that the questions I asked were taking place in the fight, I mean it only went two rounds. I was just hypothetically asking what you'd say and do if chad's jab wasn't having any effect on hopkins. I'm a big B-hop fan, but I know he gets rough in there. But one thing I will say is that people simply think the reason why he ducks his head and charges after shooting the straight right is to headbutt his opponent, to me, that's not the case. He does it to nullify counter punches from his opponents, mainly the uppercut, which ironically is one of Chad's best punches, hence Hopkins' doing it so early on, he was attempting to keep Chad off his rythm by lunging in with his punches opposed to how he fought Pascal. What I was saying is, is that due to the awkward style of Bernard it was going to be hard for Chad to put his athleticism and skills to work. And it would of became an indecisive fight. With neither of them really taking full control of the fight. I could be wrong. Just my take.
I agree with what you are saying. Chad has REALLY long arms. Its not a secret. Fighters with really long arms, have trouble getting off punches if you crowd them. I saw Bernard Staying out of Range when he didn't want to engage, but when he was either force to engage by Dawson, or chose to engage on his own, he quickly closed the distance (yes followed by a headbutt) to crowd Dawsons punches.
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#53
Old 11-09-2011, 01:34 AM
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hmmmmmm. is this fighter u? if not do u follow the tradition of no sex?

no, not me, I was never a world champion...personally I stayed away from it for the most part because I would have been too worried too test it out...although I will say that two days before one of my best showings as apro I fell to temptation and it didnt bother me at all...but I worried maybe it was just a fluke..boxing is a VERY mental game, believe me!!!
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#54
Old 11-09-2011, 02:25 AM
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I think once the fight settled in he was going to get ripped with shots, personally...and remember, people talk about Hops lik ehe is a genius etc...great fighter, sure...but hes not MAYWEATHER, he is far from ubeatable or untouchable..Mayweather made some great fighters look average...Hopkins generally has tough fights, win or lose...and he's lost three times in the last several years...I just dont feel Hops is nearly as hard to deal with as some other fighers...
I don't recall Floyd making many great fighters look ordinary. Most of his good wins have been struggles as well, or at the very least rough affairs.

The Hatton win, did not start off at all dominating, and for most of the fight it was rough fight, that was physically straining on Floyd.

The Castillo fights speak for themselves.

The De La Hoya fight was a difficult fight for Floyd were he failed to really show much brilliance, or dominance.

The Judah fight, the first 4 rounds were very difficult for him, and Judah drops off after 4 rounds against basically everyone.

Don't get me wrong, Floyd has had his moments of brilliance. He was BRILLIANT against Chico Corrales, and people forget how highly regaurded Chico was when he did that.

He was Brilliant against Marquez, he was Brilliant against Gatti, he was Brilliant against many of his lesser foes.

But how many of those fights did he look Brilliant in when he came in as a heavy underdog? Not many, if any.

Bernard was Brilliant against Trinidad. He was Brilliant against Tarver. He was Brilliant against Pavlik, and he was Brilliant against Pascal the first time.

Don't get me wrong, Ive never been a huge fan of the man. Look at my sig, I have a .gif of him getting raped in the bum by Joe Calzaghe, and I still maintain: that fight wasn't even close.

But to deny Bernards greatness, and brilliance as a ring tactician is foolish at best, and ignorant at worst.

The man has done some incredible things, and is an incredibly smart fighter. He was never the most athletically perfect specimen. Never the fastest fighter, never the hardest hitting fighter, but he was always the smartest fighter in the ring when he fought, and physically he was good enough.

Your feeling that Hopkins is not that great is one of the reasons that he is. He has this ability to convince everyone to underestimate him. How many fights has he gone into as a 3-1 or more underdog to score a decisive victory?

He did it with Trinidad at 3-1 . He did it with Pavlik at 4-1. He did it with Tarver at 3.5/1, He was close to 2-1 against Pascal the first time.

He sure has fooled a lot of people with a lot of money into believing that he is not that good, so I don't blame you for coming to that conclusion.

But he is.
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#55
Old 11-09-2011, 08:37 AM
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Its not foolish...Im not saying he isnt a great...Im just saying that people have went a little overboard with the Bernard is a genius, bernard is a wizard, this and that talk...its like the IN thing to say now...my feeling is that as the fight progreeses and unfolds (it was onloy the SECOND ROUND) that Chad starts to overwhelm him...I mean, people act as though the tewo Taylor fights and the Calzaghe fight didnt exist..and if you take DIRTY FIGHTING AND TACTICS out of the equation and Bernard is not he same fighter..refs been letting him get away with his patended jab-right hand-top of the head cobo for YEARS...if anyone else used that they'd be banned from the game...
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#56
Old 11-09-2011, 09:03 AM
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Also, realize this...a fast handed guy pot shotting Chad in a fight Chad only trained 4 weeks for and having Bernard do that in a fight he trained SEVEN weeks for is a much different act to carry out...when Chad is on his game and ready there is no one in the world who is going to "pot shot" that guy...and Bernard, listen, again,the FACT is that Bernard gets away with illegal and borderline illegal tactics that favor him in a big way...you have a ref who is very much on the game and not intimidated by Bernard and his tactics, have a ref who wil make it a clean fight, and Bernard is a MUCH DIFFERENT AND MUCH LESS EFFECTIVE guy...that is a F-A-C-T
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#57
Old 11-09-2011, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
I mean, people act as though the tewo Taylor fights and the Calzaghe fight didnt exist..and if you take DIRTY FIGHTING AND TACTICS out of the equation and Bernard is not he same fighter..refs been letting him get away with his patended jab-right hand-top of the head cobo for YEARS...if anyone else used that they'd be banned from the game...
no way man, you're acting like bernard is the only tricky/dirty fighter in the game and that's all he knows. He didn't use any dirty tricks against pascal, tarver, pavlik, trinidad. He gets dirty when he wants to. Hopkins isn't some super famous boxer who gets special treatment. Far from it, he's smart with his dirtiness he knows how to make the ref not see things or make him believe it was accidental. In that sense he is a genius!
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#58
Old 11-09-2011, 11:49 AM
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no way man, you're acting like bernard is the only tricky/dirty fighter in the game and that's all he knows. He didn't use any dirty tricks against pascal, tarver, pavlik, trinidad. He gets dirty when he wants to. Hopkins isn't some super famous boxer who gets special treatment. Far from it, he's smart with his dirtiness he knows how to make the ref not see things or make him believe it was accidental. In that sense he is a genius!
My man, it is MY JOB to study the tapes and strategies of this man...and I know boxing...he is DIRTY...D-I-R-T-Y...he is calculated and knows how to make it seem "accidental", yes...but there is no person on earth who is going to tell me this guy doesnt gain edges by being dirty...trust me, if you've ever been in the ring with someone and been headbutted you KNOW what it does to alter your game plan, etc..I have talked to at least three former Hopkins opponents and each one has clearly said in no uncertain terms, HE IS DIRTY...add that to several guys who sparred with him saying the same thing and it is what it is...
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ***1048;ATAS206 View Post
no way man, you're acting like bernard is the only tricky/dirty fighter in the game and that's all he knows. He didn't use any dirty tricks against pascal, tarver, pavlik, trinidad. He gets dirty when he wants to. Hopkins isn't some super famous boxer who gets special treatment. Far from it, he's smart with his dirtiness he knows how to make the ref not see things or make him believe it was accidental. In that sense he is a genius!
No, I am saying that if you TAKE AWAY his dirty tactics and he would be NOWHERE near the same fighter...that and his whining on the ground...he lives by the sword but if he even sees a sword in his opponents hand he looks for a way to make it seem like HE is being fouled...again, I could show you 50 instances where his dirty tactics and strategies -and he ref not containing them- forced his opponent to alter their fight because they ddint want to get headbutted, etc...other than hitting Ortiz on the break, Mayweather by comparison is great based ONLY on his boxing skills and techniques, not the extra stuff that Bernard implements...Mayweather doesnt NEED all that...
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY View Post
My man, it is MY JOB to study the tapes and strategies of this man...and I know boxing...he is DIRTY...D-I-R-T-Y...he is calculated and knows how to make it seem "accidental", yes...but there is no person on earth who is going to tell me this guy doesnt gain edges by being dirty...trust me, if you've ever been in the ring with someone and been headbutted you KNOW what it does to alter your game plan, etc..I have talked to at least three former Hopkins opponents and each one has clearly said in no uncertain terms, HE IS DIRTY...add that to several guys who sparred with him saying the same thing and it is what it is...
I'm not denying he's a dirty fight, he is a dirty fighter. My point was that he doesn't get special treatment because he knows how to get away with it.

Also, to your next post, you said if you take away that part of his game he has nothing left. What about Pavlik, Trinidad, Pascal, Tarver & Glen Johnson (amongst others)? Did he fight dirty in those fights? He schooled all those guys with his boxing ability, he didn't have to rely on rough tactics. That's all I'm saying. Now against Dawson, I'm sure his gameplan was to make it rough and nasty, but that's not all he has.

And comparing floyd to bernard, floyd has NATURAL gifts that bernard never had. Bernard was never the fastest, never had the greatest natural abilities, he did what he did by being a master at what he does and by studying his opponents and knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are and using that against them. That's why I've always been impressed with Hopkins. Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, guys like that have incredible naturally athleticism that you can't teach or learn. Hopkins never had those advantages, he had to work his ass off to perfect his craft.
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