Top 50 Non U.S. ATG LIST

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by Kid McCoy

I did say McCoy was a joke, among the most mediocre world champions you'll find in any era. However if you're talking legitimacy then he had a better claim to the middleweight title than anyone else. Klaus was the established champ, he lost to George Chip and then Chip was KO'd by McCoy. What was the lineage of Darcy's world title?

Gibbons later beat mcCoy and claimed the title (it was a ND and hence probably Mccoy got saved)...here is an article discussing his claim:-

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...al+mccoy&hl=en

[BattlingNelson]

Originally Posted by McGoorty

BATTLING NELSON,.... The second part of that was meant for you...... I have served.... can you get a return on court ??

Yeahyeah I read it Mc. Surely Nelson belongs in a top 50 non-us ATG list. Don't judge him on the Wolgast loss. He has plenty of great wins including Gans twice, Britt etc.

Others that should be there:

Monzon
Duran
Langford
Mike McCallum
Jimmy McLarnin
Dick Tiger
JC Chavez
Max Schmeling
Joe Calzaghe
Ted Kid Lewis
Ken Buchanan
Ayub Kalule
Ingemar Johansson
Azumah Nelson
Jimmy Wilde
Kid Chocolate
Bob Fitzsimmons
Lennox Lewis


Phew...... putting 50 names up is not possible for me straight of the bat, but I'm confident that those I mentioned should be there.

[McGoorty]

Originally Posted by BattlingNelson

Yeahyeah I read it Mc. Surely Nelson belongs in a top 50 non-us ATG list. Don't judge him on the Wolgast loss. He has plenty of great wins including Gans twice, Britt etc.

Others that should be there:

Monzon
Duran
Langford
Mike McCallum
Jimmy McLarnin
Dick Tiger
JC Chavez
Max Schmeling
Joe Calzaghe
Ted Kid Lewis
Ken Buchanan
Ayub Kalule
Ingemar Johansson
Azumah Nelson
Jimmy Wilde
Kid Chocolate
Bob Fitzsimmons
Lennox Lewis


Phew...... putting 50 names up is not possible for me straight of the bat, but I'm confident that those I mentioned should be there.

Yeah a good list, especially if you add JLD (james 1st namen).......... Kalule maybe,... as you said 50 is too hard even if you spent weeks comparing stuff and doing a big job. i guarantee anyone that even after you publish your list you'll stop yourself and say, Oh bloody 'ell, I forgot "HIM"...... there's always some that you overlook and then you want to try again.......... and no matter what list you put up... there will surely be some controversy.......... I guarantee it, that's why i just sit back now and have a bit 'o fun watching others tripping over themselves....... and we always contradict ourselves on some other list.............................................. ....... I bet if I listed every fighter named on this thread we'd have over 150 in all probability.

[McGoorty]

Originally Posted by BattlingNelson

Yeahyeah I read it Mc. Surely Nelson belongs in a top 50 non-us ATG list. Don't judge him on the Wolgast loss. He has plenty of great wins including Gans twice, Britt etc.

Others that should be there:

Monzon
Duran
Langford
Mike McCallum
Jimmy McLarnin
Dick Tiger
JC Chavez
Max Schmeling
Joe Calzaghe
Ted Kid Lewis
Ken Buchanan
Ayub Kalule
Ingemar Johansson
Azumah Nelson
Jimmy Wilde
Kid Chocolate
Bob Fitzsimmons
Lennox Lewis


Phew...... putting 50 names up is not possible for me straight of the bat, but I'm confident that those I mentioned should be there.

I'm a massive fan of Nelson, Like Fitzsimmons who was born in NZ but considered himself an Australian as he grew up here and learned to box here from Foley..... The US newspapers always called Bob an Aussie in respect to Fitzsimmons wishes........ I'm reading Battling Nelson's own writings...... He say's he's very proud to have been born in Denmark, but he insists that he's a real American,... he even became a cowboy to prove it. ------------------------------------------- I'm quite happy to the claim that he represents Denmark on this thread, he is both Danish and an American cowboy and boxer and business man.................... He has to be on this list in that case. As for the Wolgast fight, how on earth could I hold that against Nelson, in defeat he was more magnificent than most boxers are when they win by a KO after a sterling performance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though Wolgast beat Bat,.. I rate Nelson higher, he was able to fight at a top level for a lot longer,.... Wolgast was so kamikaze and furious he burnt out a lot faster,.... He is one of those fighters that Jack O' Brien said were the comets that burst upon the scene and are phenomenal fighters for a very short time..... O'Brien insists that that style is bad for one's health and longevity.......... He isn't far from the mark I suspect.. how many of that type have we seen......... and they are unforgettable........ By a short time, O' Brien is talking about a prime of less than 5 years.......... ( Frazier 1969 - 73 ??).

[McGoorty]

Originally Posted by Kid McCoy

I did say McCoy was a joke, among the most mediocre world champions you'll find in any era. However if you're talking legitimacy then he had a better claim to the middleweight title than anyone else. Klaus was the established champ, he lost to George Chip and then Chip was KO'd by McCoy. What was the lineage of Darcy's world title?

It's complicated, and i've typed it all before on the Darcy Thread, The book is only a quarter of the way finished, I can suggest you read what's on there so far, but the author goes into all these things fairly well. My beef with Al McCoy is not that there were 8 or 9 fighters better than him, read up on how McCoy beat Chip, it's very suspicious, any way Chip beat McCoy three times if I recall. My problem with McCoy was that he just trashed that title, he had many fights in that period and lost over half of them, if Mike Gibbons could claim to be champion, then so can half a dozen others that made him look terrible during that time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Particularly as you are living in an era with 10 champs per division, I don't think you have the right to question Darcy who had one of only two recognised world titles,........ Many countries recognised Darcy as World Champion, and no Americans complained when McGoorty and Clabby held same title,.. for anyone today to call Darcy's version not a belt when you may have just seen some clown with an IBF belt and a WBF belt on the same night,... Darcy's belt is worth 3 of any of them combined. From 1914 to 1918 the McCoy title belt was never contested, so what's the problem....... amongst Darcy's many opponents that he destroyed, there were a fair number of them who had beaten Klaus, Papke, McCoy and many others,.. anyway that's my position, the next best I can do is give you the link to my previous typing on this subject, have a read mate, if you haven't already, because he's able to explain it better, there is a very strong case for Darcy,.I don'y know where the right page is, but here's the link http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...=497729&page=6

[BattlingNelson]

Originally Posted by McGoorty

I'm a massive fan of Nelson, Like Fitzsimmons who was born in NZ but considered himself an Australian as he grew up here and learned to box here from Foley..... The US newspapers always called Bob an Aussie in respect to Fitzsimmons wishes........ I'm reading Battling Nelson's own writings...... He say's he's very proud to have been born in Denmark, but he insists that he's a real American,... he even became a cowboy to prove it. ------------------------------------------- I'm quite happy to the claim that he represents Denmark on this thread, he is both Danish and an American cowboy and boxer and business man.................... He has to be on this list in that case. As for the Wolgast fight, how on earth could I hold that against Nelson, in defeat he was more magnificent than most boxers are when they win by a KO after a sterling performance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though Wolgast beat Bat,.. I rate Nelson higher, he was able to fight at a top level for a lot longer,.... Wolgast was so kamikaze and furious he burnt out a lot faster,.... He is one of those fighters that Jack O' Brien said were the comets that burst upon the scene and are phenomenal fighters for a very short time..... O'Brien insists that that style is bad for one's health and longevity.......... He isn't far from the mark I suspect.. how many of that type have we seen......... and they are unforgettable........ By a short time, O' Brien is talking about a prime of less than 5 years.......... ( Frazier 1969 - 73 ??).

Nelson was probably more american than danish. He even served in the army:




A danish fighter, I forgot who, came to fight in the US, and he wrote about his experiences including a meeting he had with Nelson and how Nelson was very proud of his danish heritage, but knew only a couple of words in danish.


Wolgast was a great fighter as well, but not as great as Bat. I think most historians agree on that.

Maybe he should be on the list as well as a dutch.

[Welsh Jon]

Originally Posted by McGoorty

I didn't mean to get to worked up before, but I have had to repeat and repeat so many statements before I posted on yours that I went a bit overboard as I'd almost forgotten which post I was replying to.... had a nap, clear headed again.......... keep up some of the good work you've done since you've been here mate because you could be one of our better posters. And thanks for replying earlier in a calmer manner than I did, I hope I was more reasonable this time.... cheers.

Mate I admire your passion! Though you could do with chilling out sometimes.

While I don't agree with all you have to say on him Les Darcy is clearly a legend, and his name shouldn't be forgotten by boxing fans.

[McGoorty]

Originally Posted by Welsh Jon

Mate I admire your passion! Though you could do with chilling out sometimes.

While I don't agree with all you have to say on him Les Darcy is clearly a legend, and his name shouldn't be forgotten by boxing fans.

Nearly everything I write about Darcy is from the words I have read about him, they are mostly their words. Have never seen Darcy in the flesh, I can only trust the words of experts, fighters and bystanders, who were there. Thankfully there is film of him and 5 great name opponents,....... it is the films that confirm his ability to me, he seems like the unstoppable force as well as the irresistable force. The hiding he hands out to George Chip on film is severe, and Chip was one hell of a fighter (not a stylist), Les at times throws his opponents around like rag dolls, he's the strongest MW that I've ever seen,................... seen. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know who your favourite fighter is but I won't criticize whoever he is. He could be a local hero or one who's dead and gone, Darcy is the fighter who put Australia on the map. I think you'd agree that most Aussie fighters have never even come close to Darcy, just look at the low respect on this scene towards fighters not called Peter Jackson, Bob Fitzsimmons, Les Darcy, Dave Sands....------------ Fenech and Tszyu are fairly rated, but rarely as true ATG's........... as for every other Aussie boxer............ they are just completely unknown here except for 21st century fighters like Kat and Darch............................................. ..........-----------------------Anybody got a thought on Daniel Geale....... does he look the goods ???... or is he a flash in the pan ??????????????