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View Poll Results: Do you support the Palestinians' UN bid for statehood?
Yes, they should be recognized as a state 57 81.43%
No, they should not 9 12.86%
I'm not sure 4 5.71%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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#51
Old 12-01-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
You mean like the Statehood that was granted in 1948 and declined by the representatives of Palestine?
That was straight after the formation of Israel where the Palestinians saw land promised to them by the British in the First World War for fighting and beating the Turks given away to create the new state of Israel. I don't think anybody in their right mind in their position at the time would have taken that lying down.
Time has moved on and Israel is not going anywhere and the land Palestine occupies is a fraction of what the British designated for them as the maps show. Your argument that the Palestinian's should forfeit what the British set aside for them because they were not happy with their initial raw deal is flawed.
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#52
Old 12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Freedom. View Post
Are you for or against the Palestinians' UN bid to be recognized as a state?

Israel won't be able to bully them as much without violating international law, if the Palestinians are officially recognized by the UN as a state.
Absolutely .... it should have happened in 1948, which goes to the lopsidedness of UN support throughout the last 70+ years.
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#53
Old 12-01-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by arraamis View Post
Absolutely .... it should have happened in 1948, which goes to the lopsidedness of UN support throughout the last 70+ years.
It did happen in 1948, it was rejected and the Palestinians were basically screwed by Egypt, Transjordan, Syria and Iraq who invaded Israel, lost the war and then occupied "Palestinian" land for two decades until another Arab war of aggression against Israel in 1967.

Quote:
That was straight after the formation of Israel where the Palestinians saw land promised to them by the British in the First World War for fighting and beating the Turks given away to create the new state of Israel.
Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire Great Britain administered land in Palestine and for a time there was relative peace in the area. A series of violent uprisings against the British and massacres of Jews including the Hebron massacre in 1929. The escalating violence is what led to the 1948 League of Nations resolution and the proposal of a two-state solution.

Arab representatives for what would be a Palestinian state rejected the proposal, Israel accepted it and as soon as it was finalised and Israel declared independence it was attacked.

I can't stress this enough: The problems in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are complicated.
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#54
Old 12-02-2012, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
I can't stress this enough: The problems in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are complicated.
well of course the history behind this whole conflict is complicated but the solution doesn't need to be...if israel and palestinians continue to live in the past then no progress can be made.
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#55
Old 12-02-2012, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SoggyLungs View Post
well of course the history behind this whole conflict is complicated but the solution doesn't need to be...if israel and palestinians continue to live in the past then no progress can be made.

Well let's see if we can predict where current events are going .....

Since the cease-fire:


* Palestine recognized as a non-member state by The United Nations

* The following day, Israel said it would start drawing up plans to build thousands of settlement homes, including the first-ever development on a crucial corridor east of Jerusalem.

* The Israeli government recently delivered another blow, saying it would withhold more than $100 million in funds it transfers to the Palestinians each month.

*******
The U.S.'s position over the years:

"The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. It is time for these settlements to stop."- Barack Obama, 2010

“Israel should not undertake any activity that contravenes road map obligations or prejudice final status negotiations with regard to Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem. Therefore, Israel must remove unauthorized outposts and stop settlement expansion.” - G.W. Bush, 2003

“The settlement enterprise and bypass roads is inconsistent with the Oslo commitment that both sides negotiate a compromise." - Bill Clinton, 1999-2000

“My position is that the foreign policy of the United States says we do not believe there should be new settlements in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. And I will conduct that policy as if it‘s firm. And that‘s our strongly held view. George H.W. Bush, 1990

“United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements …” - Ronald Reagan, 1982

“Our position on the settlements is very clear. They are not legal.” - Jimmy Carter, 1980

“Substantial resettlement of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories is illegal under the convention and cannot be considered … ” – Gerald Ford, 1976

“… has no right to make expropriation or confiscation of land” - Richard Nixon, 1969

“ … to our continuing opposition to any Israeli settlements in the occupied areas” – Lyndon Johnson, 1964
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#56
Old 12-02-2012, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SoggyLungs View Post
well of course the history behind this whole conflict is complicated but the solution doesn't need to be...if israel and palestinians continue to live in the past then no progress can be made.
Whats the "solution" then, since it doesnt have to be so complicated
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#57
Old 12-03-2012, 12:05 AM
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war every years, decades, it wont stop...
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#58
Old 12-03-2012, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SoggyLungs View Post
well of course the history behind this whole conflict is complicated but the solution doesn't need to be...if israel and palestinians continue to live in the past then no progress can be made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Crushin View Post
Whats the "solution" then, since it doesnt have to be so complicated
I don't think there is or will be any solution that puts an end to the violence,there are solutions that can reduce the the degree of resentment that the Palestinians have to having their land usurped but that will increase the resentment in Israel because the settlers in the occupied territories won't be happy about being evicted. There is going to be no deal that ends all violence,just a remote possibility of fairer deal to the Palestinians and that deal seems to be going back to the 1967 borders. Israel has no intention of ever cutting that deal.
Israel has played a delaying game with the occupied territories , progressively filling the place with settlers and sticking 2 fingers up at UN mandates. Israel has used Palestinian and Arab violence as the excuse to strengthen their claim on the territories and not negotiate but if you look at the kill ratios of Palestinians to Israelis there is no parity loads of Palestinians die per Israeli but the fault always lies with the Palestinians. An environment has been created for perpetual violence and Israel has put stipulations that there has to be an end to violence for negotiation but Israel has no intention of doing any deal that would resemble going back to the 1967 borders. Playing the perpetual victim card is a great tool to justify not doing deals and usurping Palestinian land.
The occupied territories should never have been occupied with settlers in the first place and removing those settlers makes it now near impossible for Israel to cut a meaningful deal with the Palestinians which was the objective. The situation has been made deliberately complicated so that the simple solution of giving the land which is rightfully Palestinian back never happens.

Last edited by Prince Mongo; 12-03-2012 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:52 AM
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Abso-****ing lutely. Israel has been bullying htem for far too long, as western powers turn a blind eye. . .

If we can invade Iraq, and Afghanistan because of the "threat they pose" to freedom, then we can invade Israel, and restore the land, and freedom belonging to the Palestinian people. . . Of course I don't think we should be invading anybody, but I'm just saying. . . What Israel has been doing to Palestinians is terrorism, and worse than any threat the muslim nations pose to "freedom."


Palestine needs to have their borders restored to where they rightfully should be. . . Give them their statehood, and then they should be left the F alone. .

Palestinians have the right to self-determination, as any group of people do. . . And we need to stop funding Israel so they can keep bullying them. . .

FREEEEEDOM FOR PALESTINIANS!
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UglyPug View Post
Abso-****ing lutely. Israel has been bullying htem for far too long, as western powers turn a blind eye. . .

If we can invade Iraq, and Afghanistan because of the "threat they pose" to freedom, then we can invade Israel, and restore the land, and freedom belonging to the Palestinian people. . . Of course I don't think we should be invading anybody, but I'm just saying. . . What Israel has been doing to Palestinians is terrorism, and worse than any threat the muslim nations pose to "freedom."


Palestine needs to have their borders restored to where they rightfully should be. . . Give them their statehood, and then they should be left the F alone. .

Palestinians have the right to self-determination, as any group of people do. . . And we need to stop funding Israel so they can keep bullying them. . .

FREEEEEDOM FOR PALESTINIANS!
This is a gross oversimplification of the situation. Israel is a democratic country that is constantly being bombarded by rocket fire aimed at civilians. Occasionally Israel retaliates and when it does that the casualty rates are staggeringly low considering that the military targets it goes after are usually hidden within the softest of civilian centres like schools or hospitals.

You don't think that the casualties sustained by Gazans (and at this stage it's only Gaza where the leadership is Hamas) are low? It's lower than the number of Pakistani shiites murdered by Sunnis in the same time period. It's lower than the number of Nigerian Christians killed by Islamists. Much has been made about the 130 or so Palestinians who have died in the latest escalation, but this pales next to the deliberate massacre of 400 Palestinian refugees by Syrians in their current conflict.

Like I said, it's complicated and one major complicating factor is the sheer volume of anti-Jewish propaganda that makes the news.

The issue with the current UN bid for statehood is that it isn't in fact genuine. It's a stunt and not a serious move to a one state solution. What the UN should be doing is pressuring Gazans to get rid of Hamas who frankly do not want a two-state solution, they want a one-state solution and one that is devoid of Jews.

EDIT: For some reason the auto-censor doesn't like the word "shiite"
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