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#1
Old 10-21-2005, 08:32 PM
DuncanJL
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Default Ali-Frazier I

Ali Frazier I...It's the machine-like forward progress of Joe Frazier hardly slowing to the rat-ta-tat free flowing fire of Muhammad Ali.. My wonder for this fight is more with Ali than Frazier. The man didn't fight in a professional fight for 4 years. During that time, his body changed significantly and he wasn't fighting enough to become cognizent of and to adapt to those changes. The fight shows the truth. The man had such resource that he could lose countless degrees of speed (hand, but more losing body/foot speed) and countless degrees of punching accuracy, both of which were more vital to Ali than other premiere heavyweights and still return to shake a glorious heavyweight division which had certainly nearly evolved past him. I can't understand how his body(nervous system, skeletal structure) is able to endure such horrible punishment and regenerate itself for the silly run he went on from mid-late '71 on to '74 in besting every top heavy in the world. Certainly he won many of his great fights during the '70's because of his uncanny chin and iron body that allowed him to absorb punishment and return with more fire than the opponent.

Last edited by DuncanJL; 10-22-2005 at 03:06 PM.
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#2
Old 10-25-2005, 02:09 PM
butterfly1964
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This was almost the perfect fight. The two most overwelmingly conflicting styles were that of Ali and Frazier. Ali, elusive pinpointing his bullet-fast jabs and leads onto Frazier's face, and Smokin' Joe, applying the pressure, getting in powerful body shots and that famous Philadelphia left hook, allways pressing, allways giving his opponent no room to breathe.

I said this was almost the perfect fight because Ali was bothered by almost 4 years of inactivity. Between 1967 and 1970, Ali, scary as it may sound would have been much better than he was at, say the start of 1967! He would have been stronger and his foot speed would not have diminished. If the U.S. had not stripped him of what was rightfully his, Ali and Frazier probably would have fought either in 1968 or 1969, in the REAL prime of Ali's career. The end result would have been that Ali danced circles around Frazier, and knocked him out, although it probably would have been the butterfly's toughest title defense of his whole career, not what actually happened on that fateful day in March of 1971.
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#3
Old 10-25-2005, 06:19 PM
Frazier's 15th round
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Uh, guys? Ali was able to train and spar during his exile. And he did. It's not like he just sat on a couch for 3 1/2 years and then went into the ring. Also, you exaggerate how much his skills had deteriorated. He had worked out on the heavy bag a lot more prior to the fight, and he was STRONGER than he was before his exile. Also, he had lost a little speed, but not that much.

Dance rings around Frazier? You listen to Thomas Hauser too much. If Ali couldn't dance rings around guys like Chuvalo and Mildenberger, how do you think he would do against a PRIME Joe Frazier? No, wait. We already saw that. He got beat by a pretty big margin.
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#4
Old 10-25-2005, 06:41 PM
butterfly1964
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He completely destroyed Mildenburger and Chivalo. Its just that it did'nt look that way bebause he destroyed everyone else 10 times as worse. Mildenburger gave Ali trouble because he was a southpaw, Frazier wasn't. Chivalo was a tough fighter that never went down. He's not as good as Frazier, but he definitely didn't give Ali as much trouble as you say he did. Ali won twice over Chivalo an overwelming unanimous decision, with all scorecards giving Ali almost one-third more points than Chivalo.

As for that Ali wasn't in that bad shape, maybe at that time he wasn't, but my thing is that if Ali was a little faster, he would have avoided most of Frazier's punches, and he would have gotten more in, and in the end scored a knockout between about the 8th and 13th round.
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#5
Old 10-25-2005, 07:12 PM
DuncanJL
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Default I ain't no Thomas Hauser, but lets be real about it

Ill just say in response that I'm not one of those Ali whiners who uses the layoff excuses to claim he wouldve "danced circles" around any opponent. It's too easy to look at Ali's pre-layoff dominance and explain that his post-layoff loss to Frazier was due solely to a deterioration of his skills(and not Frazier's greatness). I always have Frazier's back in arguments. There is no denying that he was as scary a heavyweight during that period as anyone in history. He was probably faster on his feet, more unrelenting, and more vicious a puncher than anyone Ali had faced before in his career. My point is that it is truly phenomenal that in an era where so many of the best 200lb athletes were fighters and when the heavyweight division was so glorious, Ali could come back after 4 yrs of no professional fights to go straight back to the top. These heavyweights were among the top 1% of all professional athletes, in my opinion, and for a fighter to lose 4 years of his prime and come back to still be basically on top is ridiculous. And to address your other point, training and sparring just to stay in shape is something entirely different from training and sparring with a fight on the horizon. He never let himself lose his shape completely, but it was a far less focused training regimen than he would have been going through to prepare for a title fight. Come on man have a little respect for the epic status of Ali's '70's comeback. Don't say that Ali didn't lose much. His fight style up to that point had been based almost entirely on foot/hand speed and punching accuracy. Those parts of his arsenal were severely impaired by the 4 year layoff. I understand that he may have acquired more power as a slightly older fighter, but he had not yet learned to harness and rely on this power. Eventually his greatness would lend itself to a new strategy for winning fights, the rope-a-dope. But the knowledge this strategy was based on, Ali's punishment enduring capabilities, could not have been gathered without the horrible reality check of his encounter with Frazier. Against Frazier, he was still using old tactics like pulling away from left hooks (relying on his footspeed), other maneuvers as well. Many of these proved ill fated options at this point in his career(especially against a machine like Frazier). To wrap up, I'll say it took him exactly three, count em, THREE, fights to effectively learn what sort of fighter he needed to become and which of his resources he could depend more heavily upon. As if fighting Frazier wasn't enough, he had to do it while learning and crafting his fight style all over again ? How great can one man be ????

Last edited by DuncanJL; 10-26-2005 at 06:40 PM.
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#6
Old 10-26-2005, 04:26 AM
DuncanJL
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and Chuvalo and Mildenburger lost in some of the most lopsided title fights of the '60s. Walks in the park for Ali. I think the only reason anyone says that Mildenburger gave Ali a tough fight is because Ali liked to say that. I don't see it. Mildenburger is hurt badly within the first 5 rounds or so and is a dead man walking after that. I think Ali was simply giving the German crowd that false hope and excitement that he loved to give crowds only to eventually take it away.

Last edited by DuncanJL; 10-26-2005 at 04:33 AM.
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#7
Old 10-26-2005, 10:57 AM
butterfly1964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanJL
and Chuvalo and Mildenburger lost in some of the most lopsided title fights of the '60s. Walks in the park for Ali. I think the only reason anyone says that Mildenburger gave Ali a tough fight is because Ali liked to say that. I don't see it. Mildenburger is hurt badly within the first 5 rounds or so and is a dead man walking after that. I think Ali was simply giving the German crowd that false hope and excitement that he loved to give crowds only to eventually take it away.
Good point DuncanJL, however Mildenburger did land a body shot on Ali that did hurt him in the 6th round. And because he was a southpaw, Ali had to start moving to the right and not his usual left as you would see from watching the fight. This at times threw him off balance, and the German southpaw took advantage at times. Also if you notice he was holding his hands way higher than usual, meaning he was showing respect for the challenger and showing some precaution. And Chuvalo took the best from Ali and gave some back. He did win a couple of rounds(that's more than his other opponents could have said in the 60's).

Last edited by butterfly1964; 10-26-2005 at 02:54 PM.
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#8
Old 10-26-2005, 02:08 PM
Frazier's 15th round
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Ali is the greatest, but I do think a lot of people say he dances around anyone with ease in his prime, but don't say anything to back it up. He's awesome, but come on. Give a little credit to the guys who fought before him, and maybe to a few who fought after him.
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#9
Old 10-26-2005, 02:51 PM
butterfly1964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazier's 15th round
Ali is the greatest, but I do think a lot of people say he dances around anyone with ease in his prime, but don't say anything to back it up. He's awesome, but come on. Give a little credit to the guys who fought before him, and maybe to a few who fought after him.
i said it before, and i'll say it again. IF YOU CAN'T HIT SOMEONE, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW STRONG YOU ARE! name one fighter that moved faster than ali, back it up and i'll give you props.
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#10
Old 10-27-2005, 06:55 AM
Frazier's 15th round
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After the first fight, Ali said this:

"I woulda lost quicker."

That was in response to a question asking what would have happened if Ali and Frazier had met before the exile. Ali HIMSELF said that.
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