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#21
Old 09-13-2011, 08:52 PM
Ziggy Stardust
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Originally Posted by rorymac View Post
I'd put the same fighters in plus Jones Jr and Calzaghe (the latter being an unpopular choice around here). Do you have a top 10 ATG P4P?
Yeah, Jones belongs there I just don't think of him as being from the past 10 years (then again Evander isn't either).....I blame it on trying to forget Jones' post 2000 body of work lol.

I haven't done a p4p list in quite a while as I don't put as much stock in it as others do.....I prefer to rank ATGs within weight classes. I'd have Robinson at the top though.

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#22
Old 09-13-2011, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KO'er View Post
IMO Liston would. The 84 inch jab would be hitting Marciano fairly easily IMO, and it has so much power. Liston has so much power too, he hit in and around Foreman's range.

I think Marciano would put up a great fight, but IMO Liston would have too much.
Liston wins easy. It would be much worse than Foreman vs Frazier. He'd moida da bum!
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#23
Old 09-13-2011, 11:51 PM
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I think this is a worse matchup for Marciano than Foreman would be.

He'd be on the end of a strong 84" jab all night. If he DID get in close then he'd eat a few of Liston's formidable uppercuts and hooks.

We saw the problems Marciano had with a technical boxer with a good jab in his fight with Walcott, even if he did catch him eventually, but now imagine that the reach is a lot longer, the punches are much harder, and the fighter is more careful.

Judging from most of the posts I've read here, most people have only seen Liston v Clay, and I can't emphasise enough how much that does Liston's ability a diservice.
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#24
Old 09-14-2011, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by FenechJeff View Post
I think you're living in a fantasy world, mate. Liston wouldnt be able deal with the Rocks clubbing punches. And he would NEVER stop Marciano. That's out of the question. Liston had a heart smaller than dingo balls.
Ad hominem attacks to reasoned, well-thought out arguments are the best indicator of who is living in a fantasy land.

Genuine debate includes listening to what the other guy says and addressing the points he makes with clear and solid reasoning. Sticking your fingers in your ears, muttering meaningless statements and then shouting "I WIN - HA HA!" just makes you look silly.

The original post included some good arguments. Liston would hold an absolutely enormous reach advantage. Under normal circumstances this would be difficult to overcome. But Sonny also possessed arguably the biggest jab in the history of boxing and worse still - he knew precisely how to use it to maximum advantage.

The only counter you offer is "POWER!" and "HEART!" and some vague reference to "clubbing punches" (are there any other kind?). But "power" won't stop a jab from re-arranging your face whilst "heart" just means you can eat more of them.

Had Liston a weak chin you may have a point. But the fact is he didn't. Making reference to his losses to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen kind of misses the fact that he lost to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen.

Throughout his career Sonny Liston was plagued with all manner of problems (some personal, others to do with the society he lived in). But there is little evidence I can see that proves he lacked either a chin or heart.

On the other hand, whilst Marciano never lost a fight - there is plenty of evidence to say he could be troubled. Let's not forget that he had to climb off the canvas several times (and survive numerous tough fights in which he was in real jeopardy). So Marciano too could be troubled by power. And Liston was a murderous hitter. Indeed, I'd go so far as to suggest he was a heavier hitter (and a better fighter) than anyone Rocky faced (with the exception of Louis - but he was pretty much washed up by then).

So why don't you try this again - but this time listen and think before putting your fingers on the keyboard?
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#25
Old 09-14-2011, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
Ad hominem attacks to reasoned, well-thought out arguments are the best indicator of who is living in a fantasy land.

Genuine debate includes listening to what the other guy says and addressing the points he makes with clear and solid reasoning. Sticking your fingers in your ears, muttering meaningless statements and then shouting "I WIN - HA HA!" just makes you look silly.

The original post included some good arguments. Liston would hold an absolutely enormous reach advantage. Under normal circumstances this would be difficult to overcome. But Sonny also possessed arguably the biggest jab in the history of boxing and worse still - he knew precisely how to use it to maximum advantage.

The only counter you offer is "POWER!" and "HEART!" and some vague reference to "clubbing punches" (are there any other kind?). But "power" won't stop a jab from re-arranging your face whilst "heart" just means you can eat more of them.

Had Liston a weak chin you may have a point. But the fact is he didn't. Making reference to his losses to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen kind of misses the fact that he lost to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen.

Throughout his career Sonny Liston was plagued with all manner of problems (some personal, others to do with the society he lived in). But there is little evidence I can see that proves he lacked either a chin or heart.

On the other hand, whilst Marciano never lost a fight - there is plenty of evidence to say he could be troubled. Let's not forget that he had to climb off the canvas several times (and survive numerous tough fights in which he was in real jeopardy). So Marciano too could be troubled by power. And Liston was a murderous hitter. Indeed, I'd go so far as to suggest he was a heavier hitter (and a better fighter) than anyone Rocky faced (with the exception of Louis - but he was pretty much washed up by then).

So why don't you try this again - but this time listen and think before putting your fingers on the keyboard?
Good post, just to let you now this guy is a racist troll just have a quick look at a few of his other posts and you'll see.
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#26
Old 09-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
Ad hominem attacks to reasoned, well-thought out arguments are the best indicator of who is living in a fantasy land.

Genuine debate includes listening to what the other guy says and addressing the points he makes with clear and solid reasoning. Sticking your fingers in your ears, muttering meaningless statements and then shouting "I WIN - HA HA!" just makes you look silly.

The original post included some good arguments. Liston would hold an absolutely enormous reach advantage. Under normal circumstances this would be difficult to overcome. But Sonny also possessed arguably the biggest jab in the history of boxing and worse still - he knew precisely how to use it to maximum advantage.

The only counter you offer is "POWER!" and "HEART!" and some vague reference to "clubbing punches" (are there any other kind?). But "power" won't stop a jab from re-arranging your face whilst "heart" just means you can eat more of them.

Had Liston a weak chin you may have a point. But the fact is he didn't. Making reference to his losses to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen kind of misses the fact that he lost to the greatest heavyweight the world has ever seen.

Throughout his career Sonny Liston was plagued with all manner of problems (some personal, others to do with the society he lived in). But there is little evidence I can see that proves he lacked either a chin or heart.

On the other hand, whilst Marciano never lost a fight - there is plenty of evidence to say he could be troubled. Let's not forget that he had to climb off the canvas several times (and survive numerous tough fights in which he was in real jeopardy). So Marciano too could be troubled by power. And Liston was a murderous hitter. Indeed, I'd go so far as to suggest he was a heavier hitter (and a better fighter) than anyone Rocky faced (with the exception of Louis - but he was pretty much washed up by then).

So why don't you try this again - but this time listen and think before putting your fingers on the keyboard?
Great post and wish I had your patience lol.

Poet
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#27
Old 09-14-2011, 12:18 AM
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Read that in Eubank's voice.

It was pretty great.
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#28
Old 09-14-2011, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenechJeff View Post
I think you're living in a fantasy world, mate. Liston wouldnt be able deal with the Rocks clubbing punches. And he would NEVER stop Marciano. That's out of the question. Liston had a heart smaller than dingo balls.

dingo balls huh?


well in that case...
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#29
Old 09-14-2011, 12:38 AM
Ziggy Stardust
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Vs. Cleveland Williams I


Vs. Cleveland Williams II


Vs. Floyd Patterson I


Vs. Floyd Patterson II
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#30
Old 09-14-2011, 12:40 AM
Ziggy Stardust
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Vs. Wayne Bethea


Vs. Willi Besmanoff


Vs. Roy Harris
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