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#11
Old 09-05-2011, 05:47 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
You kinda had me going until you went into hyperbolic mode about Cleveland Williams being the second coming of Godzilla.

Besides, I already read the book on Liston. I know all about him. He was a 6 foot tall illiterate ex-con with a constant sourpuss who shrivelled up lke a dick in cold water the minute Ali called his "tough guy" bluff.
Aside from that, he was slow footed and and relatively slow handed.

Good jab, decent side to side head movement and a good straight right. But people go overboard with their romanticizing of the "good ole' days".

I threw the Klitschko barb in for good measure because I know this section is polluted with jingoistic misanthropes and sore losers jealous of Europe.

Not you, but others.

Muhammad Ali admitted to being scared to death of Sonny Liston.
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#12
Old 09-05-2011, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Is there ever a time you're not in the mood to watch a Sonny Liston fight?
It actually took me longer than ud think to appreciate Sonny, he's now a top 10 favourite! Not sure i by the whole throwing of both fights tho. Not out of the question tho when u hear it there...

Last edited by The Surgeon; 09-05-2011 at 05:56 PM.
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#13
Old 09-05-2011, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
You kinda had me going until you went into hyperbolic mode about Cleveland Williams being the second coming of Godzilla.

Besides, I already read the book on Liston. I know all about him. He was a 6 foot tall illiterate ex-con with a constant sourpuss who shrivelled up lke a dick in cold water the minute Ali called his "tough guy" bluff.

Aside from that, he was slow footed and and relatively slow handed.

Good jab, decent side to side head movement and a good straight right. But people go overboard with their romanticizing of the "good ole' days".

I threw the Klitschko barb in for good measure because I know this section is polluted with jingoistic misanthropes and sore losers jealous of Europe.

Not you, but others.

As for the first point this is not my article, my name is sadly not Monte Cox. The fact that you thought someone had went to the effort of writing that and just dismiss it with hatred about the fighter being discussed just proves your ignorance.

For the record Williams was a very good fighter regardless.

I don't think if he was "illiterate" or an "ex-con" has anything to do with his boxing ability.

He might have been a little slow on the foot speed but, he tagged Ali with a lot of fast jabs in the first fight despite being horribly past prime and had average at the very worst ahdn speed for a Heavyweight.

"Good jab" is a candidate for understatement of the year. I'm also not romanticizing with the "good ole# days" either. If you looked at some of my other posts you would know that.

Why would I be jealous of Europe when I myself am from Britain and wanted Haye to be beaten...

I posted an article about a misunderstood ATG HW which people might find interesting, I didn't want you to hate on him. If you don't feel he is great outline your reasons in a sensible non-hating manner and respect the things he did have going for him.

Good day
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#14
Old 09-05-2011, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Muhammad Ali admitted to being scared to death of Sonny Liston.
Maybe after the fact, but during the pre fight buildup he took Liston's "aura" and flushed it down the toilet.

He rendered Liston impotent with some simple psychology.
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#15
Old 09-05-2011, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
As for the first point this is not my article, my name is sadly not Monte Cox. The fact that you thought someone had went to the effort of writing that and just dismiss it with hatred about the fighter being discussed just proves your ignorance.
Sounds like a guy projecting his histrionic fantasies onto a one dimensional fighter for the sake of sounding like a poor man's Norman Mailer. Its frankly been done to death.



Quote:
For the record Williams was a very good fighter regardless.
He was a big strong guy. Not a very good fighter. There's a difference.

Quote:
I don't think if he was "illiterate" or an "ex-con" has anything to do with his boxing ability.
If you're stupid outside the ring, how can you be smart inside the ring? It has everything to do with his approach to the sport.


Quote:
He might have been a little slow on the foot speed but, he tagged Ali with a lot of fast jabs in the first fight despite being horribly past prime and had average at the very worst ahdn speed for a Heavyweight.
Oh so now he's horribly past prime? Why do you make excuses for him when you yourself said you didn't know his age? Everyone just guessed. Liston sympathizers always use that as a crutch when its convenient. I'm sure if he would've beaten Ali like his usual Mid-west bum of the month opponents he would've been considered "absolutely prime".

Not to mention his quittage in the second fight but that could use its own thread.

Quote:
"Good jab" is a candidate for understatement of the year. I'm also not romanticizing with the "good ole# days" either. If you looked at some of my other posts you would know that.
Why would I be jealous of Europe when I myself am from Britain and wanted Haye to be beaten...
I specifically excluded you from that. Don't get your panties wet over nothing.


Quote:
I posted an article about a misunderstood ATG HW which people might find interesting, I didn't want you to hate on him. If you don't feel he is great outline your reasons in a sensible non-hating manner and respect the things he did have going for him.
I don't "hate" on him. I didn't know him personally. But I'm realistic, I've seen the video of him fighting and none of it comes close to reconciling the hyperbole that people attribute to him. The gap between the rhetoric and his actual skill level is pretty wide.

I got no horse in this race.
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#16
Old 09-05-2011, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
You kinda had me going until you went into hyperbolic mode about Cleveland Williams being the second coming of Godzilla.
A fighter you obviously know nothing about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
Besides, I already read the book on Liston.
And apparently learned nothing at all.....not surprising for a functional illiterate like yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
Aside from that, he was slow footed and and relatively slow handed.
Kind of like the slow ass Klitschkos huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
Good jab, decent side to side head movement and a good straight right. But people go overboard with their romanticizing of the "good ole' days".
You mean the way you go overboard romanticizing the current era?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
I threw the Klitschko barb in for good measure because I know this section is polluted with jingoistic misanthropes and sore losers jealous of Europe.
No, you threw that in because you nuthug the Klits and other Eurofrauds.

And BTW, very few Americans outside of a few Marxist 'tards are jealous of Europe. You have zilch to be jealous over.....Not surprising since your society hasn't been relevant in about 60 years.

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#17
Old 09-05-2011, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
Maybe after the fact, but during the pre fight buildup he took Liston's "aura" and flushed it down the toilet.

He rendered Liston impotent with some simple psychology.
Not true.

Ali admitted before an after the fight that he was afraid of Sonny Liston;



(About the physical confrontation between Clay and Liston before their first fight) In his interview with Playboy, Clay admitted it was true. Liston had frightened him. “ I ain’t gonna lie. That was the first time since I known Sonny Liston that he scared me. I just felt the power and the meaness of the man I was messing with”

The fight doctor Alex Robbins, proclaimed that Clay was “emotionally unbalanced, scared to death and liable to crack up before he entered the ring”

“I won’t lie” Ali admitted to Thomas Hauser in 1991, “I was scared. Sonny Liston was one of the greatest fighters of all time. He hit hard and he was fixing to kill me. But I was there, I didn’t have no choice but to go out and fight”

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston1.htm

Sonny Liston was the only man to strike genuine fear into Muhammad Ali. For a very good reason.

Sonny Liston wasn't 'scary' for show. He was genuinely a very frightening man.
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#18
Old 09-05-2011, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Not true.

Ali admitted before an after the fight that he was afraid of Sonny Liston;



(About the physical confrontation between Clay and Liston before their first fight) In his interview with Playboy, Clay admitted it was true. Liston had frightened him. “ I ain’t gonna lie. That was the first time since I known Sonny Liston that he scared me. I just felt the power and the meaness of the man I was messing with”

The fight doctor Alex Robbins, proclaimed that Clay was “emotionally unbalanced, scared to death and liable to crack up before he entered the ring”

“I won’t lie” Ali admitted to Thomas Hauser in 1991, “I was scared. Sonny Liston was one of the greatest fighters of all time. He hit hard and he was fixing to kill me. But I was there, I didn’t have no choice but to go out and fight”

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston1.htm

Sonny Liston was the only man to strike genuine fear into Muhammad Ali. For a very good reason.

Sonny Liston wasn't 'scary' for show. He was genuinely a very frightening man.
Again, I'm sure Ali had some anxiety before a fight, but he didn't show it and turned the tables on Liston. Liston thought Ali was nuts and didn't know how to approach him.

Ali admitting this stuff 20 years later doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. What matters is how he diffused Liston's "aura" simply by not giving him any respect prior to the fight.

Its like Holyfield handled Tyson or anyone else who wasn't a total bum handled Tyson.

Without you helping Tyson and Liston out by being scared, they were nothing but bullies with a punch.
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#19
Old 09-05-2011, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Fooly Cooly View Post
Again, I'm sure Ali had some anxiety before a fight, but he didn't show it and turned the tables on Liston. Liston thought Ali was nuts and didn't know how to approach him.

Ali admitting this stuff 20 years later doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. What matters is how he diffused Liston's "aura" simply by not giving him any respect prior to the fight.

Its like Holyfield handled Tyson or anyone else who wasn't a total bum handled Tyson.

Without you helping Tyson and Liston out by being scared, they were nothing but bullies with a punch.
You're missing the fact that Ali said some of those things BEFORE their first fight. And admitted he was afraid of Sonny BEFORE their first fight.

Ali himself admitted BEFORE their first fight that was afraid of Sonny. And he did a very good job at covering that up.

There is no 'bluff' to call. Because Sonny Liston wasn't bluffing.

Sonny Liston isn't Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson admitted to being afraid walking to the ring.

The only time 'admit' and 'Sonny Liston' are in the same sentace is pretty much every fighter he ever fought admitting they were scared to death of him.

Muhammad Ali beat him solely because he is better than him. Alot better than him. And that's it. It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact of Ali 'not being scared of him' and 'calling his tough guy bluff' that argument has been ultimately de-bunked.

And being over-matched by argubaly the greatest Heavyweight of all time is nothing to be ashamed of.
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#20
Old 09-05-2011, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
You're missing the fact that Ali said some of those things BEFORE their first fight. And admitted he was afraid of Sonny BEFORE their first fight.

Ali himself admitted BEFORE their first fight that was afraid of Sonny. And he did a very good job at covering that up.

There is no 'bluff' to call. Because Sonny Liston wasn't bluffing.

Sonny Liston isn't Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson admitted to being afraid walking to the ring.

The only time 'admit' and 'Sonny Liston' are in the same sentace is pretty much every fighter he ever fought admitting they were scared to death of him.

Muhammad Ali beat him solely because he is better than him. Alot better than him. And that's it. It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact of Ali 'not being scared of him' and 'calling his tough guy bluff' that argument has been ultimately de-bunked.

And being over-matched by argubaly the greatest Heavyweight of all time is nothing to be ashamed of.
Liston was obviously bluffing because he is a quitter and a cheater who tried to blind Ali with acid in his eyes.

Liston was obviously scared of Ali because Ali didn't roll over like the usual punks do when a bully tries to pull a fast one on him.

You are sitting here and pretending Liston isn't a human and he has no fears about going in the ring? lol.

EVERY fighter has fear before entering the ring. You pretending Liston was some evil robot killer is more of the same kind of mythologizing that a lot of these hack writers do with old fighters to try and sound "profound" when in fact its a lotta bull and puckey.
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