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#131
Old 08-30-2011, 01:11 PM
The Big Dunn
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Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
You have your mind made up, so why ask other people questions that you don't care about the answers to? Vitali will be in the HOF whether you want him to be or not.
I don't know if he will or not. I'm trying to see why you or new england thinks he is going. Maybe I'm missing something but since you haven't disagreed with points I've made maybe I'm not. A loss to Lewis and a comeback win over Sam Peter after 3 yr layoff (and given special treatment by WBC) are his most notable fights. Thats hard to make the HOF off that.
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#132
Old 08-30-2011, 01:13 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Left Hook Tua View Post
why is it so hard to imagine wlad losing to atg's and hofers?


we don't even have to imagine wlad losing to mediocre opponents. we have it on video.
I genuinely don't understand this either.

Thinking Holmes, Tyson and Liston could beat Wladimir Klitschko is not a far fetched idea.
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#133
Old 08-30-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
I genuinely don't understand this either.

Thinking Holmes, Tyson and Liston could beat Wladimir Klitschko is not a far fetched idea.

Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, Danny Williams, Kevin McBride.

Liston fought in mostly mob fixed fights, including his losses to Clay.

Lennox Lewis was knocked cold by two journeymen.

Holmes fought ridiculous bums like Tex Cobb.

So if the idea is that Wlad is flawed but the others are perfect, that is far from the truth.

It's just that Wlad's flaws are always magnified, and the flaws of the people he is compared to downplayed, by people who hate the Klitschkos.

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#134
Old 08-30-2011, 01:21 PM
The Big Dunn
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
I genuinely don't understand this either.

Thinking Holmes, Tyson and Liston could beat Wladimir Klitschko is not a far fetched idea.
Cmon Irondanhamza and left hook tua. Its not that wlad who got Ko'd by bums its the wlad that just beat david haye. You have to get your wlad's right. lol.
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#135
Old 08-30-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post

Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, Danny Williams, Kevin McBride.
Tyson lost to Williams and McBride long after he was washed up. While far from an ATG, Douglas is better then anyone on Wlad's pathetic resume.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
Liston fought in mostly mob fixed fights, including his losses to Clay.
Provide proof or STFU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
Lennox Lewis was knocked cold by two journeymen.
Wlad was knocked cold by THREE journeymen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
Holmes fought ridiculous bums like Tex Cobb.
And he also fought fighters like Shavers, Weaver, Norton, Witherspoon, Cooney, ect. who were better then anyone either Wlad has faced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
So if the idea is that Wlad is flawed but the others are perfect, that is far from the truth.
Nobody's talking about p
perfection. But those others weren't KOed by a golfer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
It's just that Wlad's flaws are always magnified, and the flaws of the people he is compared to downplayed.
Maybe because he has far more of them then the ones you mentioned hmmmmm?

Poet
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#136
Old 08-30-2011, 01:31 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post

Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, Danny Williams, Kevin McBride.

Liston fought in mostly mob fixed fights, including his losses to Clay.

Lennox Lewis was knocked cold by two journeymen.

Holmes fought ridiculous bums like Tex Cobb.

So if the idea is that Wlad is flawed but the others are perfect, that is far from the truth.

It's just that Wlad's flaws are always magnified, and the flaws of the people he is compared to downplayed, by people who hate the Klitschkos.

Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and Sonny Liston are far from perfect. I don't see anyone making that claim.

You have absolutley nothing to back up your claim of all of Sonny Liston's fights being fixed. Just sheer speculation.

Lennox Lewis was NOT knocked out cold twice. I don't understan why so many people say this. Oliver McCall did NOT 'knock him out cold'.

The fact remains that it is not far fetched to suggest that ATG Heavyweights such as Liston, Tyson and Holmes could beat Wladimir Klitschko.
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#137
Old 08-30-2011, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and Sonny Liston are far from perfect. I don't see anyone making that claim.

You have absolutley nothing to back up your claim of all of Sonny Liston's fights being fixed. Just sheer speculation.
You want the facts about Liston and the mob, read The Devil and Sonny Liston, written by a guy who loves Liston, I might add.

As years passed, the more I learned of boxing, and the more fighters I saw fight, the more I knew that there was no other fighter like Sonny Liston. There never had been, and there never would be. And the more I lived and learned of other things, the more I began to feel that the secret history of Sonny Liston would reveal one of the greatest Mob tales ever told, a tale that ended in a murder mystery whose solution seemed to be lost forever, as gone as that night when Sonny's dead man's eyes went dead for good. I did not know that it would also reveal the forces of another, unexplored darkness, an underworld unto itself. And I did not know, above all, that it would reveal a soul that, even amid the darkness in which it dwelt, eluded all concepts of good and evil, of right and wrong, of light and dark themselves.

(C) 2000 Nick Tosches All rights reserved. ISBN: 0-316-89775-2

Last edited by Grinderman; 08-30-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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#138
Old 08-30-2011, 01:42 PM
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how is it wrong to think vlad beats liston? i dont get it.
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#139
Old 08-30-2011, 01:44 PM
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From an interview with Manny Steward (Wladimir Klitschko's trainer):

Quote:
Q: If Sonny Liston had gotten his shot earlier against Floyd Patterson and if he didn***8217;t have Ali coming up, how good could Sonny Liston have been?

A: Sonny Liston, I watched Sonny Liston when I was a teenager do something that I***8217;ve never seen any heavyweight do***8212;walk through the whole division almost from being the number ten guy all the way up to the champion because he was that devastating like around ***8217;57, and ***8217;58, and ***8217;59. I mean he had unbelievable brutal punching power. He was mean, punched with both hands, and I think that the time that he finally got to the title, I think his best years had gone and right after he won the title he began to live the life of a middle aged wealthy man. He lost the real focus that he had earlier. ***8217;57, ***8217;58, and ***8217;59 he was one of the most vicious machines probably ever in boxing, but after he won the title, from my reports and from what I gather, he started drinking a lot and he was golfing and he just lost that total edge. He was living the life of a comfortable man and then here comes exactly what the computer prints out***8212;the thing in the world for him..

A fast, young fighter, good movement, a solid amateur background, and who had been fighting on a regular basis, so therefore when the match-up came it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had slipped past his prime***8212;but if they had fought, in like say ***8217;58 or ***8217;59, a prime Sonny Liston and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whatever***8212;I don***8217;t know. I don***8217;t know. Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams***8212;oh my God. I don***8217;t know, Sonny might have won if they would have fought at that time.
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#140
Old 08-30-2011, 01:44 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Grinderman View Post
You want the facts about Liston and the mob, read The Devil and Sonny Liston, written by a guy who loves Liston, I might add.

As years passed, the more I learned of boxing, and the more fighters I saw fight, the more I knew that there was no other fighter like Sonny Liston. There never had been, and there never would be. And the more I lived and learned of other things, the more I began to feel that the secret history of Sonny Liston would reveal one of the greatest Mob tales ever told, a tale that ended in a murder mystery whose solution seemed to be lost forever, as gone as that night when Sonny's dead man's eyes went dead for good. I did not know that it would also reveal the forces of another, unexplored darkness, an underworld unto itself. And I did not know, above all, that it would reveal a soul that, even amid the darkness in which it dwelt, eluded all concepts of good and evil, of right and wrong, of light and dark themselves.

(C) 2000 Nick Tosches All rights reserved. ISBN: 0-316-89775-2
That piece presents absolutely no evidence what so ever that all of Sonny Liston's fights were fixed. It doesn't even mention anything remotely about that.

And not a single book written about Sonny Liston does, either.
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