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#11
Old 08-04-2011, 01:35 PM
Welsh Jon
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I would like to be able to do a top 10 list but I can always get to about 8 or 9 and can still think of about 4 or 5 guys who deserve to make the list! Such a loaded division. I've got a list of 9 I'm happy with but I really can't decide who deserves the tenth place:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Lou Ambers
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Ike Williams
9. Freddie Welsh
10.???
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#12
Old 08-04-2011, 02:26 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by Welsh Jon View Post
I would like to be able to do a top 10 list but I can always get to about 8 or 9 and can still think of about 4 or 5 guys who deserve to make the list! Such a loaded division. I've got a list of 9 I'm happy with but I really can't decide who deserves the tenth place:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Lou Ambers
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Ike Williams
9. Freddie Welsh
10.???
Henry Armstrong? Barney Ross? Packey McFarland? Beau Jack? Sammy Angott?



It's too hard. Lightweight, Weltweight and Middleweight are so stacked.

I've got to say though I really like this list you have.
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#13
Old 08-04-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
If anything, I think he's being slightly overrated here.

By all means, Ike is an all time great, one hell of a fighter. And a Top 10 ATG LW, minimum.

But this list here has him at #5, I can't see that. Many people I respect also rank him as high as #4 and #5.

I can't see how he's higher than Carlos Ortiz, for example. I just can't see it. But that's just my personal view.
I was getting worried that Ike was going to get bumped further and further down the list! I grew up with Ike if you know what I mean
One thing to remember with Williams is his management was a bit murky he racked up a fair few losses but I'm not convinced all were on the level. Guy could hit he'd have a punchers chance againt any LW
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#14
Old 08-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Welsh Jon
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
Henry Armstrong? Barney Ross? Packey McFarland? Beau Jack? Sammy Angott?



It's too hard. Lightweight, Weltweight and Middleweight are so stacked.

I've got to say though I really like this list you have.
Cheers!

But having said that I can't leave it at a list of 9. Who makes top 9 lists?!

Yet I can't do it, it's too hard.

I may have to pick a name out of a hat or something...

Last edited by Welsh Jon; 08-04-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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#15
Old 08-04-2011, 02:52 PM
IronDanHamza
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Originally Posted by GJC View Post
I was getting worried that Ike was going to get bumped further and further down the list! I grew up with Ike if you know what I mean
One thing to remember with Williams is his management was a bit murky he racked up a fair few losses but I'm not convinced all were on the level. Guy could hit he'd have a punchers chance againt any LW
Yeah I know what you mean. I fear the same thing for Carlos.

I even find myself forgetting about Ortiz, when I re look over his resume it reminds if of how astonishing his resume is at LW.

Yeah, I did mention on another thread that Ike is a sheer animal in terms of head to head. He is a handful for ANYONE. That includes Duran and Leonard and the rest of them.
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#16
Old 08-04-2011, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Welsh Jon View Post
Last time The Ring magazine complied a list for the greatest lightweights ever (2001) it was

1.Roberto Duran
2.Benny Leonard
3.Pernell Whitaker
4.Joe Gans
5.Ike Williams
6.Joe Brown
7.Carlos Ortiz
8.Tony Canzoneri
9.Bob Montgomery
10.Beau Jack
11.Lou Ambers
12.Freddie Welsh
13.Shane Mosley
14.Henry Armstrong
15.Esteban De Jesus
16.Ken Buchanan
17.Jack McAuliffe
18.Ismael Laguna
19.Ad Wolgast
20.Oscar De La Hoya

What do you guys make of this list?

What stands out for me is Lou Ambers is too low, Shane Mosley is too high (When the list was made he was at his peak which is probably why he was overrated here) and that as much as I love Pernell Whitaker I don't think he should be ranked above Joe Gans.
This really caught my eye because their top-4 is the same as mine. After that it diverges:

01. Roberto Duran
02. Benny Leonard
03. Pernell Whitaker
04. Joe Gans
05. Carlos Ortiz
06. Jack Blackburn
07. Azumah Nelson
08. Joe Brown
09. Ike Williams
10. Julio Cesar Chavez
11. Jem Driscoll
12. Tony Canzoneri

Some honorable mentions:

Lou Ambers
Ken Buchanan
Esteban DeJesus
Beau Jack
Willie Joyce
Hilmer Kenty
Ismael Laguna
Bob Montgomery
Battling Nelson
Edwin Rosario
Lew Tendler
Ben Villaflor
Freddie Welsh

Hell, Erik Morales has a good argument for being ranked here.

This really is a historically stacked division.

Poet
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#17
Old 08-04-2011, 04:51 PM
Welsh Jon
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Originally Posted by poet682006 View Post
This really caught my eye because their top-4 is the same as mine. After that it diverges:

01. Roberto Duran
02. Benny Leonard
03. Pernell Whitaker
04. Joe Gans
05. Carlos Ortiz
06. Jack Blackburn
07. Azumah Nelson
08. Joe Brown
09. Ike Williams
10. Julio Cesar Chavez
11. Jem Driscoll
12. Tony Canzoneri

Some honorable mentions:

Lou Ambers
Ken Buchanan
Esteban DeJesus
Beau Jack
Willie Joyce
Hilmer Kenty
Ismael Laguna
Bob Montgomery
Battling Nelson
Edwin Rosario
Lew Tendler
Ben Villaflor
Freddie Welsh

Hell, Erik Morales has a good argument for being ranked here.

This really is a historically stacked division.

Poet
Erm really?

Did Azumah Nelson and Jim Driscoll ever win a fight at lightweight?

J.C.C and Jack Blackburn rated higher than Tony Canzoneri seems wrong too, in my opinion.

And Erik Morales has a good argument? Erm no he doesn't.
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#18
Old 08-04-2011, 05:06 PM
Ziggy Stardust
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Originally Posted by Welsh Jon View Post
Erm really?

Did Azumah Nelson and Jim Driscoll ever win a fight at lightweight?

J.C.C and Jack Blackburn rated higher than Tony Canzoneri seems wrong too, in my opinion.

And Erik Morales has a good argument? Erm no he doesn't.
Old-school 8 weight classes. No Junior and Super BS. If you weigh too much to be a Featherweight then you're a Lightweight.

Poet
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#19
Old 08-04-2011, 05:20 PM
GJC
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Old-school 8 weight classes. No Junior and Super BS. If you weigh too much to be a Featherweight then you're a Lightweight.

Poet
Old fart
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#20
Old 08-04-2011, 05:21 PM
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Old fart
Damn straight! Old fart = less tolerance for bullsh1t :grin9:

Poet
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