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#1
Old 06-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Terry A
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Default Billion $ point contest- Nat Fleischer's All-Time Top 10 list

Mr. Nat Fleischer was a very important figure in boxing history. As founder of "The Ring" magazine, he's often credited or cited as a preeminent boxing historian. I say, there's a difference between being the founder of an outstanding publication and a boxing historian.

Arthur Mercante is a great referee. Is he also a great boxing historian?

My point being that just because you may excel at one area in the fight sport does NOT make you a boxing historian.

Here's a list of Nat's All-Time Top 10 list that was published in 1972, the year he died. Keep in mind that any fighter who fought up to 1972 would be eligible for inclusion in his ratings.

What are some of your opinions of his rankings? See anybody missing?

Heavyweights:
1 - Jack Johnson
2 - James J. Jeffries
3 - Bob Fitzsimmons
4 - Jack Dempsey
5 - James J. Corbett
6 - Joe Louis
7 - Sam Langford
8 - Gene Tunney
9 - Max Schmeling
10- Rocky Marciano

Light Heavyweights:
1 - Kid McCoy
2 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brian
3 - Jack Dillon
4 - Tommy Loughran
5 - Jack Root
6 - Battling Levensky
7 - Georges Carpentier
8 - Tom Gibbons
9 - Jack Delaney
10- Paul Berlenbach

Middleweights:
1 - Stanley Ketchell
2 - Tommy Ryan
3 - Harry Greb
4 - Mickey Walker
5 - Ray Robinson
6 - Frank Klaus
7 - Billy Papke
8 - Les Darcy
9 - Mike Gibbons
10- Jeff Smith

Welterweights:
1 - Joe Walcott
2 - Mysterious Billy Smith
3 - Jack Britton
4 - Ted Kid Lewis
5 - Dixie Kid
6 - Harry Lewis
7 - Willie Lewis
8 - Henry Armstrong
9 - Barney Ross
10- Jimmy McLarnin

Lightweights:
1 - Joe Gans
2 - Benny Leonard
3 - Owen Moran
4 - Freddy Welsh
5 - Battling Nelson
6 - George Kid Lavigne
7 - Tony Canzoneri
8 - Willie Ritchie
9 - Lew Tendler
10- Ad Wolgast

Featherweights:
1 - Terry McGovern
2 - Jim Driscoll
3 - Abe Attell
4 - Willie Pep
5 - Johnny Dundee
6 - Young Griffo
7 - Johnny Kilbane
8 - Kid Chocolate
9 - George K.O. Chaney
10- Louis Kid Kaplan

Bantamweights:
1 - George Dixon
2 - Pete Herman
3 - Kid Williams
4 - Eder Jofre
5 - Joe Lynch
6 - Bud Taylor
7 - Johnny Coulon
8 - Frankie Burns
9 - Eddie Campi
10- Panama Al Brown

Flyweight:
1 - Jimmy Wilde
2 - Pancho Villa
3 - Frankie Genaro
4 - Fidel La Barba
5 - Benny Lynch
6 - Elky Clark
7 - Johnny Buff
8 - Midget Wolgast
9 - Peter Kane
10- Pascual Perez

(From the 1972 edition of The Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia)
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#2
Old 06-17-2011, 05:25 PM
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wild lists lol!

if i remember correctly he said bonavena was the most powerful man he ever saw
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#3
Old 06-17-2011, 05:51 PM
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I disagree with alot of his lists especially having Joe Louis ridiculously low. in his Heavyweight list

An interesting point is his Middleweight ranking of Stanley Ketchel.

Scott and Poet pointed out a good point in another thread that he seems to have become underrated in recent years.

Maybe Nat's list supports that theory?

Some of his listings aren't all bad but some are just outrageous.

He has Wilde ranked at #1 at Flyweight something I agree with and I understand his ranking of Gans, for example.

Then he has Armstrong criminally low at WW considering who is above him.

By all means, Lewis and Britton are ATG's but at #3 and #4? No chance.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:00 PM
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Disagree with most of them , obviously, but I quite like his Bantam list, order could do with a change and I don't get how Manuel Ortiz isn't in there, his Flyweight list seems reasonable as well.

Rest of the lists ?, god knows what was going through the mans head.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
Disagree with most of them , obviously, but I quite like his Bantam list, order could do with a change and I don't get how Manuel Ortiz isn't in there, his Flyweight list seems reasonable as well.

Rest of the lists ?, god knows what was going through the mans head.
I also noticed that.

Manuel Ortiz is one of my favourite fighters and my favourite Bantamweight.

I feel he is underrated even today let alone on this.

I'm also over the moon with the inclusion of Freddie Welsh in his Lightweight list, but #4? Good lord.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:38 PM
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Fleischer made those ratings well before 1972 and never bothered (or felt the need I suppose) to update them. Some of them seem bizzare, but one thing about Fleischer is that he actually saw almost all of these guys fight in person. You can't accuse him of using Boxrec or Youtube as his sources.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:45 PM
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Ezzard Charles & Archie Moore & Gene Tunney & Bob Foster are missing from the 175 lb list. That's way beyond ludicrous! How is that even possible?

His heavyweight ratings are just as bad as his light heavyweight rankings. Ali is no where to be found. James J. Corbett over Joe Louis? Over Sonny Liston, who's also no where to be found. Joe Frazier was unbeaten in 1972, fresh off a W15 over Ali. Not even on his list. James J. Corbett over a 1971-1972 Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali???

Bob Fitzsimmons over Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Liston, Marciano & Ali???

Tommy Ryan over Harry Greb, Mickey Walker & Ray Robinson???

As Iron Dan pointed out.....Henry Armstrong at #8 welterweight???

He was a great publisher. He would have starved & slept in the streets f he bet according to his own lists.

But because of his affiliation with "The Ring", lots of people think he's a boxing genius.

Last edited by Terry A; 06-17-2011 at 09:48 PM.
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#8
Old 06-18-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry A View Post
Ezzard Charles & Archie Moore & Gene Tunney & Bob Foster are missing from the 175 lb list. That's way beyond ludicrous! How is that even possible?

His heavyweight ratings are just as bad as his light heavyweight rankings. Ali is no where to be found. James J. Corbett over Joe Louis? Over Sonny Liston, who's also no where to be found. Joe Frazier was unbeaten in 1972, fresh off a W15 over Ali. Not even on his list. James J. Corbett over a 1971-1972 Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali???

Bob Fitzsimmons over Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Liston, Marciano & Ali???

Tommy Ryan over Harry Greb, Mickey Walker & Ray Robinson???

As Iron Dan pointed out.....Henry Armstrong at #8 welterweight???

He was a great publisher. He would have starved & slept in the streets f he bet according to his own lists.

But because of his affiliation with "The Ring", lots of people think he's a boxing genius.
I don't think he has Tunney ranked at LHW because he is only ranking a fighter in 1 division and he has him at HW.

I think that's the case considering he doesn't have Robinson at WW or Armstrong at LW for example.

How he doesn't have Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore or Bob Foster (or Harold Johnson ) in his LHW I just do not know. I mean, I don't know what he's thinking there.

Considering Charles has one of the all time resumes IMO how he is't including in a single list is simply preposterous in my view.

The majority of his rankings are pretty wacky, to say the least.
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:00 AM
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I'm only gonna comment on his heavyweight list because that often gets the most controversy. Granted we don't have much footage of the older fighters, we know for sure the skills of Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, would smash Fitzsimmons, who wasn't a real heavyweight, and Corbett, who may have been rather scientific for his time, but still lacking reliable film. Jeffries was viewed as the top guy because he twice beat Corbett and Fitzsimmons, who were the best fighters around at the time, but pale to some of the more recent fighters. I doubt Jeffries could handle the Heavyweights like Frazier, Louis, Ali, or Tyson.
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:22 AM
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Wow....... Some of that was pretty shocking

Terrible lists.

But because of who he is some guys will quote his opinions to u in debates as if because it came from him they were out and out facts

The mans name carries alot of weight and u have to respect the fact that he actually saw all these guys fight but to me magazines are his strong point - lists are Not!
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