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#1
Old 05-16-2011, 06:35 PM
Perfect Plex
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Thumbs down Am Having My Douts With Lennox Lewis's Greatness...

By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

Last edited by Perfect Plex; 05-16-2011 at 06:38 PM.
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#2
Old 05-16-2011, 06:44 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mongoose View Post
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

He's nowere near on the same level as Ali & Louis. Marciano, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, all should rank higher on a HW atg list. And I also feel Tyson was a greater HW.
I have much the same problem with him. He's a likeable man but I have a hard time placing him in the TOP 10.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman

are definitely above him

Wills, Tunney, Schmelling, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson are in competition for the final 3. Most days I would have Marciano and Holmes as definitely better. :-)

With this we have the question of the day - should we downgrade LL to TOP 20 because he would have lost to VK if not for the cut, or should VK be upgraded to TOP 20?
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#3
Old 05-16-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mongoose View Post
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.
Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

There are many on this forum who love Lennox with a passion. You are going to catch some flack for your opinion. You will see that he has such die hard fans who refuse to acknowledge that he could not continue against McCall, as he is blatantly falling side to side and forward into the ref, yet these die hard fans believe he could have continued. That's borderline nuthugger as far as I'm concerned.



That would be like myself, a fan of Tyson, arguing that he could have continued against Douglas. Come on, man.

The ref did him a favor by not allowing him to take more unnecessary punishment, as he was defenseless and was in no position to defend himself.

Listen to the ringside commentator who had a great view states that "Lewis falls forward into the referee, and almost pushed the referee over."

You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.
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#4
Old 05-16-2011, 07:03 PM
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I definitely feel you on this. I find it really hard to find set places to rank him, Tyson and Holyfield because they were all very special in their own unique way. I just find it hard to put him top 5 heavyweight because his best wins were Holyfield who wasn't at his best, and Vital who was ahead on the scorecards so theirs a lot of controversy around that fight.

However I do agree when people say Lewis on his best day would be tough for anybody. I just find it hard not to see it as a double standard when Lewis beats past it Holyfield and Tyson, then has a loss to somebody like Rahman, people say he's a top 5 heavyweight, then Rocky beats up past it Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles & Walcott but doesn't get the least bit respect as much as he does.

I mean he can't help what era he could fight in, I'm just saying it's hard to find a set place to rank him and not have a huge problem or debate about it. Very tricky.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:03 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mongoose View Post
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.
Besides Ali and Louis, every heavyweight can be nit picked and struggled or lost at times in his career. Lewis has a very good resume and beat every fighter he ever faced. Easily a top 10 all time heavyweight in my opinion.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosG815 View Post
Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

There are many on this forum who love Lennox with a passion. You are going to catch some flack for your opinion. You will see that he has such die hard fans who refuse to acknowledge that he could not continue against McCall, as he is blatantly falling side to side and forward into the ref, yet these die hard fans believe he could have continued. That's borderline nuthugger as far as I'm concerned.



That would be like myself, a fan of Tyson, arguing that he could have continued against Douglas. Come on, man.

The ref did him a favor by not allowing him to take more unnecessary punishment, as he was defenseless and was in no position to defend himself.

Listen to the ringside commentator who had a great view states that "Lewis falls forward into the referee, and almost pushed the referee over."

You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.
As to the McCall stoppage, no doubt that Lennox was hurt. But he wasn't in the pathetic condition that you described. After just one big punch that early in the fight, he deserved a chance to defend himself (and his title). The referee could have stopped it seconds later if he was unable to defend himself.

I always ask two question about this KO.

1) Is there a chance in hell that fight gets stopped like that if it were Mike Tyson?

2) Other than the scandalous Dokes-Weaver KO, has any other heavyweight champion ever lost his title without a chance to defend himself? You compare this stoppage to the Baer-Carnera or (the first) Ingo-Patterson KO's and it's a f'n joke. And the HBO commentators were shocked by the stoppage. This You Tube version you posted had the commentary overdubbed years later.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CarlosG815 View Post
You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.

And you will only find 1 other case of a career heavyweight who became champion beating EVERY fighter he ever faced. LL's lack of preparation have to be acknowledged in his two losses, but his dominance in rematches should be equally looked at.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:12 PM
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i agree with most of what is being said here I don't think I'd rank him in my top ten either (maybe just outside it maybe just inside it) but I disagree on the mccall stoppage i think he could have been given the benefit of the doubt, it was a flash KO unlike the tyson douglas KO which it was related to ... the Tyson douglas one was as a result of a brutal beatdown, the Lewis one ... well I wouldn't have stepped in quiet so soon

Last edited by Daddy T; 05-16-2011 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
As to the McCall stoppage, no doubt that Lennox was hurt. But he wasn't in the pathetic condition that you described. After just one big punch that early in the fight, he deserved a chance to defend himself (and his title). The referee could have stopped it seconds later if he was unable to defend himself.

I always ask two question about this KO.

1) Is there a chance in hell that fight gets stopped like that if it were Mike Tyson?

2) Other than the scandalous Dokes-Weaver KO, has any other heavyweight champion ever lost his title without a chance to defend himself? You compare this stoppage to the Baer-Carnera or (the first) Ingo-Patterson KO's and it's a f'n joke. And the HBO commentators were shocked by the stoppage. This You Tube version you posted had the commentary overdubbed years later.
So because Lennox was the champion he deserved to continue although he was not fit to? Because McCall was the challenger for the belt, he is not entitled to his knockout?

It was a knockout Scott, and a legit one at that. We can not look at the situation and base our actions on that. The ref has to be objective in his making of calls, otherwise he would be inconsistent. He was not fit to continue, and as we saw with Chavez Taylor - it doesn't matter who's fighting, what round, how hard a battle was fought, or how much time is on the clock - if a fighter can not continue, he is not allowed to continue. Lennox was not able to continue.

And if it were Tyson, who knows what would have happened? He was never wobbled and dropped like that in a fight. Tyson would have walked through that shot and probably landed a knockout counter left hook.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynboy View Post
I have much the same problem with him. He's a likeable man but I have a hard time placing him in the TOP 10.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman

are definitely above him

Wills, Tunney, Schmelling, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson are in competition for the final 3. Most days I would have Marciano and Holmes as definitely better. :-)

With this we have the question of the day - should we downgrade LL to TOP 20 because he would have lost to VK if not for the cut, or should VK be upgraded to TOP 20?
He's not a likeable man.

Not in my opinion.
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