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#11
Old 05-11-2011, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuauhtémoc1502 View Post
Why is anyone surprised at this?

Democracy will never work in those Arab states until they understand the separation of mosque and state.

I know there are some "democratic" countries there but other than Israel, I can't see the same level of freedom we enjoy unless they truly take a secularist approach.

You want democracy there, it won't end good. Just ask the people protesting right now or ask Benazir Bhutto.
pretty much agree
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#12
Old 05-11-2011, 08:54 AM
DET. IRONSIDE
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Originally Posted by Cuauhtémoc1502 View Post
Why is anyone surprised at this?

Democracy will never work in those Arab states until they understand the separation of mosque and state.

I know there are some "democratic" countries there but other than Israel, I can't see the same level of freedom we enjoy unless they truly take a secularist approach.

You want democracy there, it won't end good. Just ask the people protesting right now or ask Benazir Bhutto.
Syria HAS seperation of mosque and state. Its a Baathist dictatorship. I get WHERE you're coming from but its not as simple as that in the region.

I think Egypt is the best place to pin our hopes just now. There ARE extremists going around hitting up churches, there is the muslim brotherhood too but there is also a solid movement to go for secular democracy.

The basis for that being the religious unity shown on the demonstrations. Christians protecting Muslims from the police at prayers and vice versa.

Syria is quite similar with a good christian populous. John the Baptist is buried in a Mosque (used to be a church until abolut 700 ad) in Damascus. Christians from all over the world visit it regularly.

Last edited by DET. IRONSIDE; 05-11-2011 at 08:59 AM..
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#13
Old 05-11-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DET. IRONSIDE View Post
Syria HAS seperation of mosque and state. Its a Baathist dictatorship. I get WHERE you're coming from but its not as simple as that in the region.

I think Egypt is the best place to pin our hopes just now. There ARE extremists going around hitting up churches, there is the muslim brotherhood too but there is also a solid movement to go for secular democracy.

The basis for that being the religious unity shown on the demonstrations. Christians protecting Muslims from the police at prayers and vice versa.

Syria is quite similar with a good christian populous. John the Baptist is buried in a Mosque (used to be a church until abolut 700 ad) in Damascus. Christians from all over the world visit it regularly.
I understand all this and thanks for the revisionary history lesson (most mosques were churches at one point by the way) but until we see actions that differ from their words, it means nothing to me.

Iran is a prime example, you would think they were on the path of secularism but then the Islamic revolution happened and they are now one of the most conservative Islamic nations on the planet, Pakistan being another great example.

Islam controls the Arab mind for the most part, they can't and refuse to see a govt or life where Islam isn't the supreme law.

When that idiot who burned the Quran was talked about here in this forum, I was told by one of our Muslim posters (in absolute ignorance I must add) that the reason Muslims reacted in violence is because the burning of the Quaran means more to Muslims than the burning of the Bible to Christians.

There could never have been a more stupid statement. The real difference is that here in the West, our forefathers made it clear that no matter how strong your convictions, in order to have a TRUE Democracy and freedom, we need to be truly tolerant of all religions and beliefs and separate them completely from our government.

I don't see this COMPLETELY happening in the Arab Muslim world. As long as there are dictators who use Islam to brain wash people, it will never happen. Even Saddam Hussein who wasn't a very religious man, made sure he was seen and did certain things to keep himself looking like he was a good Muslim.


They know how to control people over there, it's really easy.....
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#14
Old 05-11-2011, 09:42 AM
DET. IRONSIDE
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Originally Posted by Cuauhtémoc1502 View Post
I don't see this COMPLETELY happening in the Arab Muslim world. As long as there are dictators who use Islam to brain wash people, it will never happen. Even Saddam Hussein who wasn't a very religious man, made sure he was seen and did certain things to keep himself looking like he was a good Muslim.


They know how to control people over there, it's really easy.....
Change is coming, I hope. The Iranian thing was different, there were no elections. Khomeini was simply installed.

One option is to wait and see. The other option is to find the Egyptian bloggers etc who want a secular democracy and give them a hand so that their word gets out there.

They did well sharing their views with the world but they are now working on spreading their views to the Egyptian population and thats their hardest task, but they know it.
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#15
Old 05-11-2011, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DET. IRONSIDE View Post
Change is coming, I hope. The Iranian thing was different, there were no elections. Khomeini was simply installed.

One option is to wait and see. The other option is to find the Egyptian bloggers etc who want a secular democracy and give them a hand so that their word gets out there.

They did well sharing their views with the world but they are now working on spreading their views to the Egyptian population and thats their hardest task, but they know it.
I hope you are right and you are much more optimistic than me.

Question, are you Muslim? Just asking because if you are I would like to ask if you think the PEOPLE will accept a secular state. I know the youth might but it seems the older people are still in power.
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#16
Old 05-11-2011, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DET. IRONSIDE View Post
Syria HAS seperation of mosque and state. Its a Baathist dictatorship. I get WHERE you're coming from but its not as simple as that in the region.

I think Egypt is the best place to pin our hopes just now. There ARE extremists going around hitting up churches, there is the muslim brotherhood too but there is also a solid movement to go for secular democracy.

The basis for that being the religious unity shown on the demonstrations. Christians protecting Muslims from the police at prayers and vice versa.

Syria is quite similar with a good christian populous. John the Baptist is buried in a Mosque (used to be a church until abolut 700 ad) in Damascus. Christians from all over the world visit it regularly.
I hope you are right...I mean Turkey and Tunisia managed to separate the Mosque and the state.But even now Tinisia is in turmoil because some abuse their power.
I guess it is similar to the southeast asian And Africa of the 60's when there was the threat of communism there's turmoil every which way.

I hope this will pass and we all learn from it.
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DET. IRONSIDE View Post
Change is coming, I hope. The Iranian thing was different, there were no elections. Khomeini was simply installed.

One option is to wait and see. The other option is to find the Egyptian bloggers etc who want a secular democracy and give them a hand so that their word gets out there.

They did well sharing their views with the world but they are now working on spreading their views to the Egyptian population and thats their hardest task, but they know it.

True Iran and Egypt are seen as the intellectual front of the region.And where the "student intellectuals lead" the rest seem to follow.
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:26 AM
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You can't expect NATO to get involved again. They'll be in the whole middle-east at this point. The middle-east is just a war zone, the arab world is just one big mess, they have no laws. Leave them to it, they knew the consequences of protesting against their government. We can't do it all for them.
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuauhtémoc1502 View Post
I hope you are right and you are much more optimistic than me.

Question, are you Muslim? Just asking because if you are I would like to ask if you think the PEOPLE will accept a secular state. I know the youth might but it seems the older people are still in power.
Its not really about youth and older people in the Middle East. Its about conservative thought in the rural areas. People are more conservative in rural areas (dirty south, little englanders...) and there are bigger populations in rural areas so you have to concentrate on waking people up to the good things that secular democracy can bring. People are doing this by focussing on exposing corruption and corrupt politicians and thats what is causing the protests.

I wouldn't predict anything. The work needs to be done, over time it will make a bigger impact but the immediate change we see is the dictators are beginning to crumble.

Thats a good start. If Islamists come in its a setback but the political climate is always ready to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uturn View Post
You can't expect NATO to get involved again. They'll be in the whole middle-east at this point. The middle-east is just a war zone, the arab world is just one big mess, they have no laws. Leave them to it, they knew the consequences of protesting against their government. We can't do it all for them.
I agree, there is a popular rising in Syria according to the reports there are people all over the streets. I believe there will come a tipping point when their army will simply join the protestors.
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