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#21
Old 09-25-2011, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
I must disagree with people when they say Mosley was best at lightweight. I really think his best work was well and truly as a welter. He was always a little drained at lightweight and really wasn't a natural 135 guy and so he was usually fatigued and lethargic. Didn't have the same snap and combinations that he showed later on at 147.

If he had gone to 140 I think he would have been more comfortable and that might have been his best weight, but I always think his best performances were well and truly out of the LW division. He just didn't look the same on the whole at 135. Always struggled with his stamina, got tired and lethargic looking overall.

Anyway, I do agree that there are many better LW's than Mosley. The three after him should be above him in my opinion. Ken Buchanan should be above Mosley. His resume at 135 ****s on Mosley's with a monster dump. Armstrong's is the same, De Jesus is the same. Each of those guys should be above Mosley.

The top ten at lightweight is really hard. Truly the best division all time with WW and MW. I think the top three are definite; Gans, Duran and Leonard in whatever order. From there though you could change them up without much argument. Canzoneri and Ortiz could rightly be placed above Whitaker. I think Ortiz gets underrated these days. He genuinely has one of the greatest lightweight resumes of all time. His era was maybe the best lightweight era outside of Leonard's and he fought and usually beat everyone. Without Duran's dominance over the ATG lightweights Buchanan and De Jesus you could easily make a case that Ortiz should be higher. Hell, he should be higher than what he is anyway. I think out of all the guys on that list, he is the most underrated by far.

You want a lightweight resume? Check this out for size; Flash Elorde x 2, Johnny Bizarro, Joe Brown, Ismael Laguna x 2, Sugar Ramos x 2, Kenny Lane, then you have the many non title fights like Dave Charnley, Battling Torres, Cisco Andrade etc that he won. His only losses were to lightweight greats like Buchanan, Kenny Lane, Laguna. Only Buchanan could stop him because he was past his best.

He unified the division, made ten defenses over two reigns. That's the ****! What a resume! Then you have his win over ATG Duilo Loi, along with Kenny Lane and Battling Torres at 140 too. Not that it should affect his standing at lightweight.

Yeah...Ortiz huh? Great fighter.
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#22
Old 09-25-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect Plex View Post
In 2001
1.Roberto Duran
2.Benny Leonard
3.Pernell Whitaker
4.Joe Gans
5.Ike Williams
6.Joe Brown
7.Carlos Ortiz
8.Tony Canzoneri
9.Bob Montgomery
10.Beau Jack
11.Lou Ambers
12.Freddie Welsh
13.Shane Mosley
14.Henry Armstrong
15.Esteban De Jesus
16.Ken Buchanan
17.Jack McAuliffe
18.Ismael Laguna
19.Ad Wolgast
20.Oscar De La Hoya


nothing wrong at all with that top 5


after that it gets a bit wishy washy

but what list doesn't?
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#23
Old 09-25-2011, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
I must disagree with people when they say Mosley was best at lightweight. I really think his best work was well and truly as a welter. He was always a little drained at lightweight and really wasn't a natural 135 guy and so he was usually fatigued and lethargic. Didn't have the same snap and combinations that he showed later on at 147.

If he had gone to 140 I think he would have been more comfortable and that might have been his best weight, but I always think his best performances were well and truly out of the LW division. He just didn't look the same on the whole at 135. Always struggled with his stamina, got tired and lethargic looking overall.

Anyway, I do agree that there are many better LW's than Mosley. The three after him should be above him in my opinion. Ken Buchanan should be above Mosley. His resume at 135 ****s on Mosley's with a monster dump. Armstrong's is the same, De Jesus is the same. Each of those guys should be above Mosley.

The top ten at lightweight is really hard. Truly the best division all time with WW and MW. I think the top three are definite; Gans, Duran and Leonard in whatever order. From there though you could change them up without much argument. Canzoneri and Ortiz could rightly be placed above Whitaker. I think Ortiz gets underrated these days. He genuinely has one of the greatest lightweight resumes of all time. His era was maybe the best lightweight era outside of Leonard's and he fought and usually beat everyone. Without Duran's dominance over the ATG lightweights Buchanan and De Jesus you could easily make a case that Ortiz should be higher. Hell, he should be higher than what he is anyway. I think out of all the guys on that list, he is the most underrated by far.

You want a lightweight resume? Check this out for size; Flash Elorde x 2, Johnny Bizarro, Joe Brown, Ismael Laguna x 2, Sugar Ramos x 2, Kenny Lane, then you have the many non title fights like Dave Charnley, Battling Torres, Cisco Andrade etc that he won. His only losses were to lightweight greats like Buchanan, Kenny Lane, Laguna. Only Buchanan could stop him because he was past his best.

He unified the division, made ten defenses over two reigns. That's the ****! What a resume! Then you have his win over ATG Duilo Loi, along with Kenny Lane and Battling Torres at 140 too. Not that it should affect his standing at lightweight.

Yeah...Ortiz huh? Great fighter.
I think you can easily make an argument for Ortiz being higher with those wins for Duran.

Other than Benny Leonard, Ortiz' resume is the most impressive resume in Lightweight History, IMO.

I feel that if you can make a case for Duran being the greatest Lightweight of all time then you can absolutely make a case for Ortiz. I just can't see how you can for one and not the other.

I don't know if you have read my thread on Carlos Ortiz and his Lightweight Ranking but if you haven't you should give it a read I think you'll like it.
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#24
Old 09-25-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

Shane is HUGELY overrated at 135, in my opinion.
Shane is a bit too high in my opinion. I'd put Buchanan about number 10.
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#25
Old 09-25-2011, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
I think you can easily make an argument for Ortiz being higher with those wins for Duran.

Other than Benny Leonard, Ortiz' resume is the most impressive resume in Lightweight History, IMO.

I feel that if you can make a case for Duran being the greatest Lightweight of all time then you can absolutely make a case for Ortiz. I just can't see how you can for one and not the other.

I don't know if you have read my thread on Carlos Ortiz and his Lightweight Ranking but if you haven't you should give it a read I think you'll like it.
I always felt Duran was number one based on resume. But I did read your thread on Ortiz and you made a great case for him.
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#26
Old 09-25-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
I always felt Duran was number one based on resume. But I did read your thread on Ortiz and you made a great case for him.
People don't realise how little Duran fought at LW in between title fights he was at 140 a lot.
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#27
Old 09-25-2011, 02:30 PM
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I barely had Mosley in the top 25; his comp was laughable compared to others (including castillo shortly after him) and he didn't beat either of the two best fighters in the division besides him (Nazarov and Johnston). Mosley was a good, not great, Welterweight fihting low in the day before weigh-in era.

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#28
Old 09-25-2011, 03:41 PM
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People don't realise how little Duran fought at LW in between title fights he was at 140 a lot.
That's true but he was also the undisputed champion and beat every lightweight who mattered. Not only did he beat them he destroyed them.
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#29
Old 09-25-2011, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
I always felt Duran was number one based on resume. But I did read your thread on Ortiz and you made a great case for him.
If you go by resume, then there are a bunch with far better opposition, and therefore not in top 5,...... When you think of McFarland & Owen Moran, you realise that Title's are not as important,,... look at how many good-uns they fought. People tend to rank Duran above people based on WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN..... If Duran fought in McAullife's day, he'd be descriminated against...... and Being in Colour helps to plant images in our heads and those images loom large when we talk about ATG's,...... who's to say that if we had many full fights in colour of Griffo or Walcott..... we may favour them over the others.
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#30
Old 09-25-2011, 04:42 PM
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Location: Les Darcy Country N.S.W.
Posts: 3,671
Rep Power: 12 McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute McGoorty has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,050,508,564.42
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 1,050,508,564.42
To a pal who I also respect a lot! - Terry A  Old timer expert with great emoticon use. - Barnburner  missed you around - McGoorty  Cheers for the green. I'm a bit of a hothead and think I may have negged you for some trifling matter on another thread, which I now regret, so this is just an apology and hope there are no hard feelings. - It's Ovah  Cheers for the green. I'm a bit of a hothead and think I may have negged you for some trifling matter on another thread, which I now regret, so this is just an apology and hope there are no hard feelings. - It's Ovah 
Top poster - Toney616  No Message - rorymac  It's your honorary Warriors fan badge..wear it with pride! KA MATE!!!! - Jeff Da Maori  Good thread - rorymac  cheers!  eat your fish!  tasty and healthy! - uglypug 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
That's true but he was also the undisputed champion and beat every lightweight who mattered. Not only did he beat them he destroyed them.
Well, Esteban De Jesus gave Duran two tough fights. Duran had to win that one from the canvas..... it took over 10 rounds for Duran to start to break down Esteban's defence and will.
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