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#1
Old 12-30-2010, 10:25 AM
sonnyboyx2
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Default Harry Greb sparring Dempsey

i have read quite a few comments from posters recently and they claim that when Harry Greb sparred with Jack Dempsey in that Greb beat-up Dempsey... so that equates to if they had fought for real in the ring that Greb would beat Dempsey.... also because these two never fought each other then that means that Dempsey "Ducked" Greb...

Dempsey used during his championship years more than 50 different fighters as sparring partners, it is well documented that welterweight Jamaica Kid easily had the better of Dempsey in sparring as did a huge number of other sparring partners..... Today we can read reports from HOF trainer Freddie Roach who tells how Amir Khan has "beat-up" Manny Pacquiao in sparring sessions, we also can read Roach saying how he is bringing in certain lighter weight fighters to spar with Pacquiao so as to improve Pacquiao's speed and timing... Jack Dempsey did exactly the same things, his trainer would use the very best men available to put Jack through his paces and get him into peak condition, using all ranges of fighters from huge heavyweights down to lightweights depending on which area's of Dempsey's training he felt needed working on... are we to say Manny Pacquiao is "Ducking" Amir Khan.. are we to claim Pacquiao cannot beat Khan because Khan beat him up in sparring
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#2
Old 12-30-2010, 10:43 AM
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Tommy Loughran can also be seen on film embarrassing Dempsey during a sparring session.

Greb having the better of Dempsey in sparring doesn't necessarily mean a thing, but he did beat many of Dempsey's opponents and was a legitimate top heavyweight at the time despite being no more than a 168 lber.
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#3
Old 12-30-2010, 12:03 PM
Kid McCoy
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The claim that Dempsey "avoided" Greb has nothing to do with what happened in some sparring session. It's based on Greb being more deserving than many of those Dempsey had a title fight with. Gibbons lost a title eliminator to Greb in one-sided fashion yet it was him who ended up getting a shot at Dempsey. Brennan hardly won a round in four fights with Greb yet he ended up getting a shot at Dempsey. Miske was a sick man who Greb had beaten twice in his prime. He wasn't more deserving than Greb. Carpentier wouldn't even fight Greb, which tells its own story.

At least there were legitimate reasons outside of Dempsey's control which derailed the Wills fight. The same can't be said for a Greb fight.
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#4
Old 12-30-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
The claim that Dempsey "avoided" Greb has nothing to do with what happened in some sparring session. It's based on Greb being more deserving than many of those Dempsey had a title fight with. Gibbons lost a title eliminator to Greb in one-sided fashion yet it was him who ended up getting a shot at Dempsey. Brennan hardly won a round in four fights with Greb yet he ended up getting a shot at Dempsey. Miske was a sick man who Greb had beaten twice in his prime. He wasn't more deserving than Greb. Carpentier wouldn't even fight Greb, which tells its own story.

At least there were legitimate reasons outside of Dempsey's control which derailed the Wills fight. The same can't be said for a Greb fight.
Carpentier was virtually unbeaten in 9yrs losing only a disputed decision to Joe Jeanette... Greb lost many of his most important career fights during the period Dempsey was champion unto he took almost 4yrs out of the ring. Greb was soundly beaten twice by Tommy Gibbons, three times & a highly debatable draw against Gene Tunney dropped a decision and drew with Tommy Loughran, lost two to Tiger Flowers, drew with one or two journeymen fighters as well as suffered a six month suspension all these as well as defending his World Middleweight Title several times and winning and losing the American Light-Heavyweight Title.... Great fighter that Greb was i just don't think he was a heavyweight which is why he was not considered and he was not more deserving of a shot at Jack Dempsey than Gene Tunney was or Georges Carpentier... also i have never ever came across any books or writings which claimed Greb should have been fighting for the Heavyweight Championship or than he was denied a chance, if you have then i would appreciate the links.

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#5
Old 12-30-2010, 01:15 PM
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their are many reasons that folks say Greb would beat Jack and the sparring sessions is just one....

1. Greb dominated a lot of Dempseys opponents in professional fights

2. Greb dominated Jacks best opponent on at least 2 occasions, while Dempsey didnt win a single match against him.

3. Greb was one of the few who picked Tunney to beat Jack the first go-round. He seemed to know something about Jack that most didnt.
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#6
Old 12-30-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Carpentier was virtually unbeaten in 9yrs losing only a disputed decision to Joe Jeanette... Greb lost many of his most important career fights during the period Dempsey was champion unto he took almost 4yrs out of the ring. Greb was soundly beaten twice by Tommy Gibbons, three times & a highly debatable draw against Gene Tunney dropped a decision and drew with Tommy Loughran, lost two to Tiger Flowers, drew with one or two journeymen fighters as well as suffered a six month suspension all these as well as defending his World Middleweight Title several times and winning and losing the American Light-Heavyweight Title.... Great fighter that Greb was i just don't think he was a heavyweight which is why he was not considered and he was not more deserving of a shot at Jack Dempsey than Gene Tunney was or Georges Carpentier... also i have never ever came across any books or writings which claimed Greb should have been fighting for the Heavyweight Championship or than he was denied a chance, if you have then i would appreciate the links.
Regardless of Greb/Dempsey your assessment of the Greb/Tunneys series is extremely unkind to Harry.
U got Billy Gibson and Arnold Rothsteen laughing in their respective graves!
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#7
Old 12-30-2010, 01:48 PM
Kid McCoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Carpentier was virtually unbeaten in 9yrs losing only a disputed decision to Joe Jeanette...
Virtually unbeaten? I assume you've taken into account all those questionable results at every stage of his career. Check out those fights he won on shaky DQs (like Gunboat) or where his opponent was paid to go easy on him (like Townley or Siki, who double-crossed him and won). At the time there were suspicions that his KO of Levinsky was a fix in order to set up the million dollar Dempsey fight.

Quote:
Greb was soundly beaten twice by Tommy Gibbons,
Greb won their last fight soundly in what was billed as a title eliminator.

Quote:
three times & a highly debatable draw against Gene Tunney
Greb spanked Tunney the first time, lost a highly debatable decision in the next (Tunney acknowledged it was a questionable result, even if you won't) and was thought by some to have edged the fourth fight as well. Tunney only beat Greb decisively twice. Bear in mind that Greb was always out-weighed by Tunney and was fighting half-blind with a helluva more mileage.

Quote:
dropped a decision and drew with Tommy Loughran
Greb fought Loughran six times and won four of them.

Quote:
lost two to Tiger Flowers
In the final fights of Greb's career, and both results were controversial.

Quote:
Great fighter that Greb was i just don't think he was a heavyweight which is why he was not considered and he was not more deserving of a shot at Jack Dempsey than Gene Tunney was or Georges Carpentier... also i have never ever came across any books or writings which claimed Greb should have been fighting for the Heavyweight Championship or than he was denied a chance, if you have then i would appreciate the links.
Greb beat guys who Dempsey fought for the title, won an eliminator for a shot at Dempsey, derailed others who were being lined up for a shot at Dempsey and you don't think he should have been fighting for the heavyweight title?
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#8
Old 12-30-2010, 02:03 PM
sonnyboyx2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
Virtually unbeaten? I assume you've taken into account all those questionable results at every stage of his career. Check out those fights he won on shaky DQs (like Gunboat) or where his opponent was paid to go easy on him (like Townley or Siki, who double-crossed him and won). At the time there were suspicions that his KO of Levinsky was a fix in order to set up the million dollar Dempsey fight.



Greb won their last fight soundly in what was billed as a title eliminator.



Greb spanked Tunney the first time, lost a highly debatable decision in the next (Tunney acknowledged it was a questionable result, even if you won't) and was thought by some to have edged the fourth fight as well. Tunney only beat Greb decisively twice. Bear in mind that Greb was always out-weighed by Tunney and was fighting half-blind with a helluva more mileage.



Greb fought Loughran six times and won four of them.



In the final fights of Greb's career, and both results were controversial.



Greb beat guys who Dempsey fought for the title, won an eliminator for a shot at Dempsey, derailed others who were being lined up for a shot at Dempsey and you don't think he should have been fighting for the heavyweight title?
show me proof of what you claim.... i am not saying you are lying but i have not come across anything to say Harry Greb fought an eliminator for Jack Dempsey's Heavyweight title... if what you say is true then show proof

i have been over the Greb vs Tunney fights with you before and i am of the opinion Tunney clearly won 4 fights and i have always believed that to be the case from all literature i have read over the last 40yrs or more... you are the only person who i have ever came across who disputes the results, maybe you was sitting ringside at those fights, i don't know but you will have to put up proof to back up your claim otherwise your claims are unfounded.

No i don't think he should ever have been fighting for the heavyweight title due to the losses he suffered to Tunney and should he ever have gotten a shot at Dempsey IMO i think Dempsey would KO him quickly.
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#9
Old 12-30-2010, 02:12 PM
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Sir your in England!!
An ocean away from the proper research material!!

sorry slakka butting in
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#10
Old 12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Kid McCoy
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show me proof of what you claim.... i am not saying you are lying but i have not come across anything to say Harry Greb fought an eliminator for Jack Dempsey's Heavyweight title... if what you say is true then show proof
Check out the headlines:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...+gibbons&hl=en

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...+gibbons&hl=en

Gibbons was being lined up for Dempsey and Greb beat him decisively, yet Dempsey fought Gibbons anyway. Why was the loser worthy of a shot but not the winner?

Quote:
i have been over the Greb vs Tunney fights with you before and i am of the opinion Tunney clearly won 4 fights and i have always believed that to be the case from all literature i have read over the last 40yrs or more... you are the only person who i have ever came across who disputes the results, maybe you was sitting ringside at those fights, i don't know but you will have to put up proof to back up your claim otherwise your claims are unfounded.
I posted evidence on that other thread but you just ignore anything you disagree with. I'd like to see your evidence for Tunney clearly winning four fights. Here are Tunney's own words on the second fight:

Quote:
It is only fair to Harry to say that there was a great deal of disagreement as to the accuracy of the decision. The judges, newspaper men, and spectators were divided. This re-won for me the light-heavy-weight championship of America. Realizing there was some justice in Greb's claim of a bad decision, I offered him a return engagement. We got together again in December of that year -- 1923.
Which is like Glen Johnson saying 'you know what, I deserved to lose that one'.

Quote:
No i don't think he should ever have been fighting for the heavyweight title due to the losses he suffered to Tunney
Five men who fought Dempsey for the heavyweight title had previously been beaten by Greb. Should they have been fighting for the title?

Quote:
and should he ever have gotten a shot at Dempsey IMO i think Dempsey would KO him quickly.
Like he did to Tunney, Gibbons, Brennan?
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