Bookmark Website  | Free Registration  | The Team
Boxing Champions |  Boxing Schedule |  Boxing Video  |  Boxing History   |  Pound For Pound  | Lounge  | The Wire |  Audio  | Arcade

Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Non Stop Boxing
Closed Thread
Thread Navigation

#1
Old 11-26-2010, 06:18 PM
2501
upinurgirlsguts
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brownsville, Tx
Age: 33
Posts: 20,301
Rep Power: 65 2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,011,031,899.10
Bank: 35,117,581,471,474.50
Total Points: 35,118,592,503,373.60
keep fighting those huggers - mickey gomez "unlike floyd" was not a bad post for a marquez guy. lol beer on the pacnuthugger - Left Hook Tua Good poster. - Tek My Pounches you got jmm flaws down to the letter..... - Left Hook Tua I got my eye on you, sexy vato. - El Gallo Homo! 
You stay putting shit in proper perspective. - El Gallo Negro! Always right on the money homey - mangler Always keepin it real - mangler Cheers. I luv your threads homey - mangler Proper ownage of Floyd stans - WhoreUs 
cheers homey - MANGLER good poster - Mucus gangsta - Poor Lad 
Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - Right Cross Ike 
Default When Will You Ignorant, Racist Morons Realize? Its Not Ethnicity Or Bloodline

that determines the talent and type of fighter one is or will be. Mexican fighters aren't tough and resilient because they have Spanish and Mesoamerican indian blood, it is because of cultural and social environmental influence. African American fighters aren't born to be slick as if it is embedded in their DNA. Some are slick because that is the style they were exposed to as a young age. That is the style taught to them. But even that is a myth in itself as most African American fighters are boxer/punchers and again, it has nothing to do with their racial/ethnic make up.

Some people are questioning what Martinez and Canelo fall under. How ****ing ignorant and stupid is that? These fighters aren't cataloged by what type of blood runs through their veins, but rather the experiences which molded them into what they are now. Those experience are derivatives of their upbringing and social acclimation. Canelo is a Mexican fighter because he was RAISED in Mexico. Canelo could be of Japenese decent and he would still be a Mexican fighter because that is WHO he is.

Ethicity, nationality, blood line: All this has nothing to do with the talent of a fighter. Culture, experience, social upbringing has EVERYTHING to do with the talent of a fighter.
Reply With Quote
2501 is online now
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
#2
Old 11-26-2010, 06:20 PM
Bastian Loc
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Deutsch
Age: 5
Posts: 11,237
Rep Power: 0 Bastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 13,898,793.97
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 13,898,793.97
prime madonna &amp;gt; lady gaga - LICH ROC i know you use one homo - rabagiyo Margarito &amp;quot;Brandon Rios chingon y va ser campeon y le va ganar a la Zorrita&amp;quot; - QUELOQUE Thanks for the mil. Here's a beer :) - ƒallenloki Chunk cake. Eat it or i'll open you up! - Chunk 
Pretend this is your hero - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr wipe those tears away, jacky - jazluvr blue parallelogram sa iyo - Jack Napier Un mar pentru tine baiatul :D! - Dorian.. 
evil jack... - Ether top poster - project xxx1 2011 gift - Ether get ready for dj - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr 
have some fun - jazluvr The people's poster - Rabbit ♠ Have a slice - SouthpawSwagger No Message - RINGG No Message - RINGG 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - rabagiyo Gay and Lesbian Pride - Southpaw Stinger World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Ether Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Ether 
World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - QUELOQUE Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - atomicsad 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2501 View Post
that determines the talent and type of fighter one is or will be. Mexican fighters aren't tough and resilient because they have Spanish and Mesoamerican indian blood, it is because of cultural and social environmental influence. African American fighters aren't born to be slick as if it is embedded in their DNA. Some are slick because that is the style they were exposed to as a young age. That is the style taught to them. But even that is a myth in itself as most African American fighters are boxer/punchers and again, it has nothing to do with their racial/ethnic make up.

Some people are questioning what Martinez and Canelo fall under. How ****ing ignorant and stupid is that? These fighters aren't cataloged by what type of blood runs through their veins, but rather the experiences which molded them into what they are now. Those experience are derivatives of their upbringing and social acclimation. Canelo is a Mexican fighter because he was RAISED in Mexico. Canelo could be of Japenese decent and he would still be a Mexican fighter because that is WHO he is.

Ethicity, nationality, blood line: All this has nothing to do with the talent of a fighter. Culture, experience, social upbringing has EVERYTHING to do with the talent of a fighter.
These have nothing to do with it either, it just comes down to your level of ability and how hard you work at it.
Reply With Quote
Bastian Loc is offline
#3
Old 11-26-2010, 06:21 PM
SplitSecond
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,430
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 38 SplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 101,231,210,760.08
Bank: 15,041,093,691.22
Total Points: 116,272,304,451.30
have a blue parallelogram - Jack Napier For solid posting - The Surgeon lol - -jose- 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - jazluvr Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - McGoorty Aphasia - Asthma/Allergies - Brain Cancer - Brain Tumors - Diabetes - Mental Illness - sugarsmosley 
Default

you're a noob to life if you think bloodline doesn't matter
Reply With Quote
SplitSecond is offline
#4
Old 11-26-2010, 06:23 PM
Bastian Loc
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Deutsch
Age: 5
Posts: 11,237
Rep Power: 0 Bastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 13,898,793.97
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 13,898,793.97
prime madonna &amp;gt; lady gaga - LICH ROC i know you use one homo - rabagiyo Margarito &amp;quot;Brandon Rios chingon y va ser campeon y le va ganar a la Zorrita&amp;quot; - QUELOQUE Thanks for the mil. Here's a beer :) - ƒallenloki Chunk cake. Eat it or i'll open you up! - Chunk 
Pretend this is your hero - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr wipe those tears away, jacky - jazluvr blue parallelogram sa iyo - Jack Napier Un mar pentru tine baiatul :D! - Dorian.. 
evil jack... - Ether top poster - project xxx1 2011 gift - Ether get ready for dj - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr 
have some fun - jazluvr The people's poster - Rabbit ♠ Have a slice - SouthpawSwagger No Message - RINGG No Message - RINGG 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - rabagiyo Gay and Lesbian Pride - Southpaw Stinger World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Ether Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Ether 
World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - QUELOQUE Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - atomicsad 
Default

I agree, bloodline does matter.

That's why elite families always intermarry.

To preserve their bloodlines.
Reply With Quote
Bastian Loc is offline
#5
Old 11-26-2010, 06:24 PM
2501
upinurgirlsguts
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brownsville, Tx
Age: 33
Posts: 20,301
Rep Power: 65 2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,011,031,899.10
Bank: 35,117,581,471,474.50
Total Points: 35,118,592,503,373.60
keep fighting those huggers - mickey gomez &amp;quot;unlike floyd&amp;quot; was not a bad post for a marquez guy. lol beer on the pacnuthugger - Left Hook Tua Good poster. - Tek My Pounches you got jmm flaws down to the letter..... - Left Hook Tua I got my eye on you, sexy vato. - El Gallo Homo! 
You stay putting shit in proper perspective. - El Gallo Negro! Always right on the money homey - mangler Always keepin it real - mangler Cheers. I luv your threads homey - mangler Proper ownage of Floyd stans - WhoreUs 
cheers homey - MANGLER good poster - Mucus gangsta - Poor Lad 
Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - Right Cross Ike 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBlayze View Post
you're a noob to life if you think bloodline doesn't matter
Really? If that were the case, then we'd have as many great African fighters as we have had African American.

Reason being that don't is because Boxing isn't engraved in the African culture has it has been in the American culture. Its not bloodline my dude.
Reply With Quote
2501 is online now
#6
Old 11-26-2010, 06:26 PM
2501
upinurgirlsguts
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brownsville, Tx
Age: 33
Posts: 20,301
Rep Power: 65 2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute2501 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,011,031,899.10
Bank: 35,117,581,471,474.50
Total Points: 35,118,592,503,373.60
keep fighting those huggers - mickey gomez &amp;quot;unlike floyd&amp;quot; was not a bad post for a marquez guy. lol beer on the pacnuthugger - Left Hook Tua Good poster. - Tek My Pounches you got jmm flaws down to the letter..... - Left Hook Tua I got my eye on you, sexy vato. - El Gallo Homo! 
You stay putting shit in proper perspective. - El Gallo Negro! Always right on the money homey - mangler Always keepin it real - mangler Cheers. I luv your threads homey - mangler Proper ownage of Floyd stans - WhoreUs 
cheers homey - MANGLER good poster - Mucus gangsta - Poor Lad 
Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - Right Cross Ike 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by INJECT View Post
I agree, bloodline does matter.

That's why elite families always intermarry.

To preserve their bloodlines.
You're talking about family bloodlines. This isn't what its about.
Reply With Quote
2501 is online now
#7
Old 11-26-2010, 06:29 PM
SplitSecond
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,430
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 38 SplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond reputeSplitSecond has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 101,231,210,760.08
Bank: 15,041,093,691.22
Total Points: 116,272,304,451.30
have a blue parallelogram - Jack Napier For solid posting - The Surgeon lol - -jose- 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - jazluvr Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - McGoorty Aphasia - Asthma/Allergies - Brain Cancer - Brain Tumors - Diabetes - Mental Illness - sugarsmosley 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2501 View Post
Really? If that were the case, then we'd have as many great African fighters as we have had African American.

Reason being that don't is because Boxing isn't engraved in the African culture has it has been in the American culture. Its not bloodline my dude.
being african alone doesn't make you great you idiot, but if you come from a family of athletes it makes a big difference

if you come from a family of fighters it makes a big ****in difference

i hate to brag like this, but i know this **** first hand
Reply With Quote
SplitSecond is offline
#8
Old 11-26-2010, 06:29 PM
clmags12
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 672
Rep Power: 6 clmags12 is just really niceclmags12 is just really niceclmags12 is just really niceclmags12 is just really nice
Points: 19,776.35
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 19,776.35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by INJECT View Post
These have nothing to do with it either, it just comes down to your level of ability and how hard you work at it.
Bro, what you said about ability and determination do play a big part. But also culture, social upbringing, experience (basically your environment) does play a part of what kind of fighter you are. There are some tough neighborhoods around where you start fighting at a young age and don't stand for sht. That will make you a tougher boxer/person. You obviously grew up somewhere safe.
Reply With Quote
clmags12 is offline
#9
Old 11-26-2010, 06:30 PM
Bastian Loc
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Deutsch
Age: 5
Posts: 11,237
Rep Power: 0 Bastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond reputeBastian Loc has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 13,898,793.97
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 13,898,793.97
prime madonna &amp;gt; lady gaga - LICH ROC i know you use one homo - rabagiyo Margarito &amp;quot;Brandon Rios chingon y va ser campeon y le va ganar a la Zorrita&amp;quot; - QUELOQUE Thanks for the mil. Here's a beer :) - ƒallenloki Chunk cake. Eat it or i'll open you up! - Chunk 
Pretend this is your hero - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr wipe those tears away, jacky - jazluvr blue parallelogram sa iyo - Jack Napier Un mar pentru tine baiatul :D! - Dorian.. 
evil jack... - Ether top poster - project xxx1 2011 gift - Ether get ready for dj - jazluvr No Message - jazluvr 
have some fun - jazluvr The people's poster - Rabbit ♠ Have a slice - SouthpawSwagger No Message - RINGG No Message - RINGG 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - rabagiyo Gay and Lesbian Pride - Southpaw Stinger World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Ether Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Ether 
World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - QUELOQUE Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr Gay and Lesbian Pride - jazluvr 
Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - RINGG Gay and Lesbian Pride - atomicsad 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2501 View Post
You're talking about family bloodlines. This isn't what its about.
You're talking about culture and upbringing as things that matter when they matter as little as race does.

You make a thread complaining about a problem and then offer a different set of problems as the solution.

It has nothing to do with culture or upbringing whatsoever.
Reply With Quote
Bastian Loc is offline
#10
Old 11-26-2010, 06:32 PM
Freedom2014
Boxing aficionado
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 41,053
Rep Power: 260 Freedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond reputeFreedom2014 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 17,000,000,493,704.63
Bank: 83,875,377,025,894,800.00
Total Points: 83,892,377,026,388,512.00
Great poster - Dr.Eisenfaust Happy new year - Scott.Weiland. happy new year too bro! - led Great poster. - PainfromUkraine elite poster - A-Wolf 
For your great work and research. - Weltschmerz No Message - Scott.Weiland. Thanks for your support - Weltschmerz Thanks - Weltz One of the best members in boxingscene - Red Cyclone 
Thsnks - Scott.Weiland No Message - Lebanon No Message - Scott.Weiland Right on, I appreciate that - Boxing Goat For rennouncing your faith in Wladimir Klitschko. Good Job. Welcome to the Wilder side of things. Welcome to team Wilder. Bommmmmmb Squaaaaaaaaaaddddddddd - BrushMyHair 
To my fellow Beatle-maniac - led Beterbiev - wladavit Thnx for the green. You are a superb poster as well. - Boxing Goat Have a pint on me! - House of Stone The GGG Wine - Imported From Monte Carlo, Monaco. Extremely Expensive, Only Shared With High Class Members Of BoxingScene. Cheers good boy! - Golovkin 
Bone Marrow Donation - Childhood Depression - Depression - Environment - Eye Injury Prevention - Glaucoma - Kidney Cancer - Kidney Disease - Kidney Transplantation - Leukemia - Lyme Disease - Mental Retardation - Missing Children - Organ Donation - T - jazluvr Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - jazluvr AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - -veteran420- Bone Marrow Donation - Childhood Depression - Depression - Environment - Eye Injury Prevention - Glaucoma - Kidney Cancer - Kidney Disease - Kidney Transplantation - Leukemia - Lyme Disease - Mental Retardation - Missing Children - Organ Donation - T - DiLLiNGER Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Jim Jeffries 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - Disposable Arts Adoptee - Bone Cancer - Child Exploitation and Abuse - Hope and Support - Peace - Retinoblastoma - Right to Life - Student Sexual Assault - El Cabron Cesarean Sections - Headaches - Hospice Care - Multiple Myeloma - Spray_resistant Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Devils Advocate Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - jazluvr 
Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - jazluvr Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - hanzoh74 World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Pullcounter Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS) - Sir TomJones Alzheimer's - Crohn's & Colitis - Cystic Fibrosis - Domestic Violence - Fibromyalgia - Leimyosarcoma - Lupus - ChopperRead 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - codey Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Boxing Goat Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - sakura storm Adoptee - Bone Cancer - Child Exploitation and Abuse - Hope and Support - Peace - Retinoblastoma - Right to Life - Student Sexual Assault - Boxing Goat World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - -jose- 
Default

I agree with the threadstarter.

Max Kellerman says that black boxers have innately "superior athleticism" but I think he's a crackpot. We saw that Martinez is more athletic than Williams, that Wladimir Klitschko is more athletic than Sam Peter, etc.

It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with individual capabilities and learned boxing styles.
Reply With Quote
Freedom2014 is offline
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
bloodline, ethnicity, ignorant, morons, racist, realize?

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Privacy Policy - Submit News - Feedback - Site Map - Advertise with Us

Copyright © 2003-2014 BoxingScene LLC All rights reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:42 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.