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#11
Old 11-16-2010, 10:23 PM
joseph5620
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
Like a comparison resume wise of Hagler vs Hearns.
Dominating a weight class is not only more impressive, but more difficult in my opinion. Grabbing belts has lost a lot of luster for a number of reasons.
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#12
Old 11-16-2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Unless a division is cleaned out there can ALWAYS be a question mark.
True. And I was thinking about fighters that dominated and cleaned out divisions like Duran, Monzon, Hagler, Foster, Spinks, Whitaker.....

Last edited by joseph5620; 11-16-2010 at 10:28 PM.
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#13
Old 11-16-2010, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
[/B]

I disagree. cleaning out a division eliminates any question of who is the very best at that weight. And going up in weight today cannot be compared with era's with many less divisions, one title and same day weigh ins. Winning a paper title doesn't make a fighter a champion, beating the best around you does and cleaning out a division leaves no rock unturned. Jmo.
This says it all...
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#14
Old 11-16-2010, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
[/B]

I disagree. cleaning out a division eliminates any question of who is the very best at that weight. And going up in weight today cannot be compared with era's with many less divisions, one title and same day weigh ins. Winning a paper title doesn't make a fighter a champion, beating the best around you does and cleaning out a division leaves no rock unturned. Jmo.
you can clean going up still

there are always so much quality opponents in each weight class

as long as you take the best, dispatch them then move up, you don't leave many questions
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#15
Old 11-17-2010, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BatteredKessler View Post
you can clean going up still

there are always so much quality opponents in each weight class

as long as you take the best, dispatch them then move up, you don't leave many questions
You can do it, but just about no one does.

One of the biggest things in boxing is getting multiple titles in lots of divisions, and yet it's ten times easier than it has ever been....actually it's, WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, Ring, Lineal, IBO, WBC Diamond....errr (is that it...I'm sure there are more which people now count as a title) eight times as likely to jump up and grab any old thing.

I always use this very, very simple example.

Paulie Malignaggi is considered a champion in today's boxing world/climate. Not long ago, he would never have been a titlist. He may have been lucky to get a title shot, but he couldn't beat Cotto or Hatton when he fought them, and at the time he did neither of those guys would have been the champ either. So, he probably would never have even had a title shot. Think about that and think about just how many titlists there are today just like that. There are so, so many.

Well, just lately, Pacquiao is a world champ again at 154. Which champion did he beat there? None. Which top ranked fighter did he beat there? None. Which former champion did he beat there? None. How did he become champion then? I don't know.

It's just a different title picture altogether. Today, winning titles in more divisions is not as impressive as cleaning out a division. To me, someone who unifies has achieved something that very, very few fighters in today's world do. Whereas, there are a million and one multi-division champions now.

You have to be a special fighter to clean out a division. Jumping about and making sure you have the right opponent in front of you to win another title in another division really isn't as difficult as it seems. Joan Guzman is already a three division champ and will probably move up alongside legends like Duran etc if he wins another as a four division champ, which won't surprise me. What's he actually done though? He's already sitting alongside guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Alexis Arguello, etc. Great, talented fighter but what's he actually done? Well, he's a three time, three division world champion is what!

Eder Jofre beat ten times the talent and type of opponents over anyone I can think of today, and to me yes, that includes Pac. He's only a two division champ! My god! Only two divisions! He can't be as good as someone who has five titles in different weight divisions, or six, or eight! He's only got two!

Last edited by BennyST; 11-17-2010 at 07:54 AM.
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#16
Old 11-17-2010, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
You can do it, but just about no one does.

One of the biggest things in boxing is getting multiple titles in lots of divisions, and yet it's ten times easier than it has ever been....actually it's, WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, Ring, Lineal, IBO, WBC Diamond....errr (is that it...I'm sure there are more which people now count as a title) eight times as likely to jump up and grab any old thing.

I always use this very, very simple example.

Paulie Malignaggi is considered a champion in today's boxing world/climate. Not long ago, he would never have been a titlist. He may have been lucky to get a title shot, but he couldn't beat Cotto or Hatton when he fought them, and at the time he did neither of those guys would have been the champ either. So, he probably would never have even had a title shot. Think about that and think about just how many titlists there are today just like that. There are so, so many.

Well, just lately, Pacquiao is a world champ again at 154. Which champion did he beat there? None. Which top ranked fighter did he beat there? None. Which former champion did he beat there? None. How did he become champion then? I don't know.

It's just a different title picture altogether. Today, winning titles in more divisions is not as impressive as cleaning out a division. To me, someone who unifies has achieved something that very, very few fighters in today's world do. Whereas, there are a million and one multi-division champions now.

You have to be a special fighter to clean out a division. Jumping about and making sure you have the right opponent in front of you to win another title in another division really isn't as difficult as it seems. Joan Guzman is already a three division champ and will probably move up alongside legends like Duran etc if he wins another as a four division champ, which won't surprise me. What's he actually done though? He's already sitting alongside guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Alexis Arguello, etc. Great, talented fighter but what's he actually done? Well, he's a three time, three division world champion is what!

Eder Jofre beat ten times the talent and type of opponents over anyone I can think of today, and to me yes, that includes Pac. He's only a two division champ! My god! Only two divisions! He can't be as good as someone who has five titles in different weight divisions, or six, or eight! He's only got two!
still, I say it all depends on the opposition faced (although I do agree that a fighter moving up through several weight classes usually doesn't take on the best fighters in each one of them)

if you clean out a weak division, and there are periods like that, how is that so impressive ? I'm well aware that it is easy to become a multi-division champ today by taking on the weakest challenges, but it is not that easy to go up in weight again and again if you face the one or 2 best fighters in those weight classes

Pacquiao is a good recent example

at LW, he took on the least dangerous title holder, David Diaz
to me, he hasn't really left a mark at lightweight depsite grabbing the WBC title

just one fight at JWW too, but at least he took on the lineal champion, Hatton

there were other good challenges left like Bradley, but taking on the recognized number 1 in a division then moving up, I don't have too much problems with that

WW, he took on washed up DLH, went on to defeat no. 2 Cotto and highly ranked Clottey, that's pretty good

then went up again

now he will either move up or down, but the Margarito win is even worse than the Diaz win as far as achievements in a given weight class are concerned

but at the end of the day, what will have been more impressive, Pacquiao staying at LW or JWW, cleaning it up, or pursue good challenges going up again and again ? to me, the answer is clear cut

so if I sum up my point with an equation :

taking on the 1 or 2 best fighters in a division then move up >>>>>>> stay for a long time in one division to clean it up (and that means facing sometimes unworthy mandatories, unifications and stuff)

Last edited by BatteredKessler; 11-17-2010 at 05:20 PM.
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#17
Old 11-17-2010, 05:28 PM
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The difference with Armstrong and what really sets him apart is that he held and defended his multiple titles SIMULTANIOUSLY. That's multiple titles that actually MEAN something as opposed to the kind of cheap belt grabbing engaged in by the Leonard, Hearns, and Mayweather & Co.

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#18
Old 11-18-2010, 01:20 PM
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The difference with Armstrong and what really sets him apart is that he held and defended his multiple titles SIMULTANIOUSLY. That's multiple titles that actually MEAN something as opposed to the kind of cheap belt grabbing engaged in by the Leonard, Hearns, and Mayweather & Co.

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Fighters today would not even be allowed to hold multiple weight belts, the dumb sanctioning bodies would strip them if they moved up/down. E.G. Sergio Martinez getting stripped just for moving up to middleweight.
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#19
Old 11-18-2010, 01:23 PM
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Fighters today would not even be allowed to hold multiple weight belts, the dumb sanctioning bodies would strip them if they moved up/down. E.G. Sergio Martinez getting stripped just for moving up to middleweight.
Not to mention holding holding belts from multiple sanctioning bodies: As soon as a fighter picks up a couple of belts one of the bodies will look for reasons to strip the fighter for the "sin" of holding another sanctioning body's belt :rolleyes9:

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#20
Old 11-18-2010, 01:45 PM
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Cleaning out the division is better unless you're going up and winning the lineal title in each division...so cleaning out the division is better.
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