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#51
Old 11-17-2010, 08:58 AM
CarlosG815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stones! View Post
Before the Oscar fight, I doubt many had him inside their Top 30-50 fighters. Prior to Oscar, Pacquiao defeated David Diaz and Juan Manuel Marquez. David Diaz is, imo, one of the worst LW champions of all-time and Juan Manuel Marquez was straight duped.

Let's break-down his last 5 fights, which has somehow catapulted Pacquiao to ATG, Legendary, P4P Top 3, All-Time-Great status.

Oscar De La Hoya: Fighting at 147 for the first time in 7 years. He was a drained fighter and the absolute definition of an over-the-hill, shot fighter. Nevertheless, this goes down as a win over a future HOF on Pac's resume.

Ricky Hatton: A decent victory for Pacquiao. Fighting for the Ring 140 pound title. Many insiders believe Bradley was the best in the division when Pac fought Hatton. Coming off a devastating loss to Floyd Mayweather, he put in a decent showing vs Malignaggi.

Miguel Cotto: Despite fighting De La Hoya at the full Welterweight limit, Pacquiao decides to place a weight-limit on this fight for Cotto's 147 strap. Cotto, imo, is an overrated fighter but no doubt he will enter the HOF. He won 2 vacant titles and was never the best at 140 or 147. Folds under pressure and simply not that great.

Joshua Clottey: Average fighter that does absolutely nothing to Pac's ranking on an ATG list.

Antonio Margarito: Past-prime fighter. Suspended for attempting to cheat. Looked terrible in his 2 previous fights and his fight with Garcia proved he was not the same fighter who defeated Cotto. Pac receives credit for Tony being 17 pounds heavier than him. Add a cheap WBC 154 title belt from a corrupt organisation to put the cherry on top of a farce.

Diaz was not the best at 135.

Hatton was not the best at 140.

Cotto, De La Hoya & Clottey were not the best at 147.

Do I need to say anything about 154?


I believe many fans are acting on emotion and are simply caught up in the hype of the moment.


Top 3? You're having a laugh, son.
This is one of the only posts in this thread that makes any sense.

Everybody who is saying that Clottey and Marg are "Decent fights" cause "nobody was saying they were shot before the fight" are dreaming.

I said Margarito was shot the entire time, and Clottey was just a nobody. Even at his best he was just a Top Rank creation and he never did anything in the boxing world. He lost every "big" fight he ever took pretty much, and came out of nowhere to fight Pacquiao.

He never fought the best in a division since 130, as I've said all along, and the main excuse I hear is "Well he started at 110 and he's fighting bigger guys" so it's ok to fight bums? Give me a break. He's been fighting at 145+ for a long time, so it isn't at all impressive to me.

I like when fighters fight the best fighters, not bums like Margarito.

Cotto was his best win of the last few years, and as Stones said above, he just isn't very good, as I've claimed for years as well.
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#52
Old 11-17-2010, 12:52 PM
them_apples
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
IMO Manny Pacquiao is Top 3 ATG P4P and will most likely be rated as the greatest boxer in the history of the sport.. Morales (thrice) Marquez (twice), Barrera (twice), Delahoya, Cotto, Hatton, Margarito i would not call those "cherry-picking" a case can be made that Oscar was past it yet it was Oscar who called for a fight with Pacquiao and Pacquiao was a 4/1 dog... 8 world titles in 8 weight divisions is a phenominal achievement and Manny Pacquiao is a phenominal fighter and a class human being .
the thing with Manny is it seems almost impossible to pick him to lose against anyone who likes to "fight". We haven't seen him against a fighter that doesn't like to fight but chances are he'd win that too since it would give him room to assault.

As of late though, anyone who's his size doesn't seem like they could hold up to his punching power either. He weighed the same fighting Marg as he did against Hatton at 140 lbs.

Pacquiao vs Chavez
Pacquiao vs Pryor
Pacquiao vs Arguello

there are some great 140 lders that I would see him dismantling with his awkward as style and extreme athletcism. Some of the shots he was landing on marg would have killed most WW's.
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#53
Old 11-17-2010, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by poet682006 View Post
The problem with Mosley is that he isn't the Mosley of 10 years ago: THAT Mosley I'd favor over Pacquiao. The Mosley of today is just a washed-up former great and anybody who thinks he's going to suddenly morph into the Sugar Shane of 2000 is kidding themselves. He looked horrible against BOTH Mayweather and Mora. The Margarito fight was nearly TWO years ago: An eternity in boxing. Even then the victory over Margarito, while satisfying from a fan perspective, was over a psychologically wrecked opponant who had just been busted for cheating.

Poet
I agree, Mosley is just a brawler now who's constantly looking for a KO, he's not a smart fighter. I don't favour him at any time over Pacquiao though. I'd give him a shot for sure. Shanes always been meh defensively and that's some thing you straight up don't do with the pacman.

He beat Marg because of the reasons you said and because Margarito let Mosley land punches from left field. Another thing is Margarito was fighting at 147 and looked about 7-8 lbs lighter than when he fought Pac.
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#54
Old 11-17-2010, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post

Pacquiao vs Chavez
Pacquiao vs Pryor
Pacquiao vs Arguello

there are some great 140 lders that I would see him dismantling with his awkward as style and extreme athletcism. Some of the shots he was landing on marg would have killed most WW's.
You see Pacquiao dismantling those guys? Have you seen Pac's own bad defense? He gets hit consistently and hard. A guy like Chavez, and I'm not saying he'd win or whatever, would land a lot of counters to the body and head and I struggle to see Pac taking Chavez's body shots well for a whole fight.

Chavez had beautiful sneaky right hand counters inside and outside. That fight would be anything but a dismantling. Pryor and Pac is a very even fight too. They both have the same defensive skills, so it comes down to who could outlast the other guy and who would land more. Difficult.

Arguello would get hit a lot. He's also ridiculously resilient though and has fight a changing right hand and left hook, which Pac would get hit with. None of those fights are foregone conclusions and if you're basing it off Pac beating Cotto, Marg, Oscar etc then you are basing it on the wrong fights.
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#55
Old 11-17-2010, 07:21 PM
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When it comes to fantasy matches against guys like Chavez, Pryor, or Arguello it depends on which weight? I think the Chavez that had the best shot against pac would be the one at 130-135, i think the recent pac at 140 and 147 was very durable and can use his footwork well against the heavier chavez. Pryor would be a war at 140, but if Pryor would be losing he would resort to boxing as he did for a portion of his first fight with Arguello.

I actually think since styles make fights the Arguello at 126-130 would have a decent chance against the pac that didn't use his right hand against Morales. But the fact that Arguello didn't use great lateral movement and came often in straight lines would also get him hit often. I remember Arguello did fight a fillipino fighter who knocked him down in the first round, he was a B class version of pac with power and his stance was kind of reminiscent.

What often neutralize pac was speed and not power. Pac skipped both the super flyweight and batamweight to go up to super bantamweight, but as you see here the element of suprise with the stiff jab is what got him knocked down here. Check between :044-1:04, 20 seconds elasped before the action resumed, and he was still out on his feet. In the lower weights, i won't say guys like Arguello or Chavez have no shot, but in the higher weights I would favor Pac. Although Agapitho Sanchez did fight a dirty fight, he did give pac trouble with his speed in their disputed draw.



Last edited by HaglerSteelChin; 11-17-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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#56
Old 11-17-2010, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
You see Pacquiao dismantling those guys? Have you seen Pac's own bad defense? He gets hit consistently and hard. A guy like Chavez, and I'm not saying he'd win or whatever, would land a lot of counters to the body and head and I struggle to see Pac taking Chavez's body shots well for a whole fight.

Chavez had beautiful sneaky right hand counters inside and outside. That fight would be anything but a dismantling. Pryor and Pac is a very even fight too. They both have the same defensive skills, so it comes down to who could outlast the other guy and who would land more. Difficult.

Arguello would get hit a lot. He's also ridiculously resilient though and has fight a changing right hand and left hook, which Pac would get hit with. None of those fights are foregone conclusions and if you're basing it off Pac beating Cotto, Marg, Oscar etc then you are basing it on the wrong fights.
As for Pryor, a relentless granite-chinned swarmer with power and underrated boxing ability, I can't see anyone at 140 dismantling him, and there's nothing in Pac's career to suggest he does either. Pac was hurting after Margarito. What would he be like after 15 rounds with Pryor?
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#57
Old 11-20-2010, 03:12 AM
them_apples
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Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
As for Pryor, a relentless granite-chinned swarmer with power and underrated boxing ability, I can't see anyone at 140 dismantling him, and there's nothing in Pac's career to suggest he does either. Pac was hurting after Margarito. What would he be like after 15 rounds with Pryor?
you think if Pacquiao unloads his payload on another 140 lb fighter they will remain standing? Pacquiao damn near killed Hatton, almost put Cottos light out cold in the 4th round, and broke bones in a 165 lb granite chinned boxer. He did all this weighing 148 lbs on fight night. Most fighters only put on 8-10 lbs max.

I can't see ANY of those guys holding up to that kind of offense. Chavez did have perfect right hand counters but Pacquiao also has perfect right and left hand counters, he's just straight up better than Chavez. I can't see Chavez having a resume with a guy like Pacquiao on it and a W beside it.


I didn't see Pacquiao hurting after 12 rounds against marg. He took a huge body shot but recovered in about 10 seconds during the 6th.

You seem to forget how Pryors face might look after 15 rounds, especially with his face first style..thats just unimaginable.

Last edited by them_apples; 11-20-2010 at 03:14 AM.
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